Alternatives to KUROSAKI SG2 SHIZUKU GYUTO 180MM

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lakelandmusic

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Hello everyone, I'm looking for the knife stated in the title, but found this particular knife is out of stock everywhere.
So any alternatives you would recommend? This is my first quality kitchen knife purchase, I'm suffering with a 12 year old set of crappy 316L knives right now if that's any indication of my experience!

Additionally what specific sharpening tools will I need with this type of carbon steel? Thank you for your time.
 
Additionally what specific sharpening tools will I need with this type of carbon steel? Thank you for your time.

But while at it, also forget about the "high carbon steel" marketing gimmick they use to sell western type trash because it will confuse ppl/get you confused. Around here, when we say "carbon steel" we're talking classification, and SG2 is no carbon steel, it's PM. Western type trash is simply called (cheap) SS. :)

Good hunting!
 
All the Yu Kurosaki lines have the same grind, so just grab any other Kurosaki in 180mm that you like the looks of.

Alternatives from other makers that have a similar cutting feel are Yoshikane, Myojin, Shibata, and Wakui. And Birgersson if you’re open to Westerners.

For sharpening start small and simple with a Shapton Pro 2k and holder, and add other stones as you need them
 
Takamura R2 is also hard to find in stock, but it will be less expensive (and less fancy looking) while performing just as well. If you put yourself on the notification list for retailers, they do pop up from time to time.
 
It's true that they are harder to sharpen than simple carbon or stainless like AEBL. Edge retention will be better. For home users and people new to sharpening, I agree that retention is over rated and might look elsewhere. Having said that, Takamura are great knives and great value. I would recommend Shapton Glass 320, 1K, and 4K and a flattening plate.
 
A very thin edged, SG2 knife would not have been my first choice when starting out in both Japanese knives and sharpening.
While I just ordered a Takamura Migaki, could you expand on that comment so I can look in another direction and start planning some more purchases? I'm going to replace an entire set here, and I have no problem with trying and owning several knives. I am going to deep dive into the sharpening aspect, it bugs me that I am not proficient. Time and patience are something I expected to need to hone some skill.
 
While I just ordered a Takamura Migaki, could you expand on that comment so I can look in another direction and start planning some more purchases? I'm going to replace an entire set here, and I have no problem with trying and owning several knives. I am going to deep dive into the sharpening aspect, it bugs me that I am not proficient. Time and patience are something I expected to need to hone some skill.
SG2 is a little more difficult to sharpen than simpler steels, that’s all. SG2 is more wear resistant, so it takes a little longer to raise a burr, but it also holds an edge longer than, say, VG10. Takamura are so thin behind the edge though, that it isn’t a big consideration.
 
SG2 is a little more difficult to sharpen than simpler steels, that’s all. SG2 is more wear resistant, so it takes a little longer to raise a burr, but it also holds an edge longer than, say, VG10. Takamura are so thin behind the edge though, that it isn’t a big consideration.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I knew this wasn't going to be a walk in the park, and I have nothing to compare it to, so here goes :)
 
As a suggestion for a place to start for sharpening, you can order a wokshop vegetable cleaver in carbon steel for like $16. Its fine to learn the sharpening fundamentals and a useful knife if you want to experiment with chinese cleavers.
 
While I just ordered a Takamura Migaki, could you expand on that comment so I can look in another direction and start planning some more purchases? I'm going to replace an entire set here, and I have no problem with trying and owning several knives. I am going to deep dive into the sharpening aspect, it bugs me that I am not proficient. Time and patience are something I expected to need to hone some skill.

Of course. Generally speaking, Japanese knives will have harder steel and thinner edges than typical western fare and especially compared to the crappy stuff. Crappy western knives can take a lot of abuse because the steel is soft and the edge bevels are thicker. Japanese knives are more vulnerable to edge (or worse) damage so one needs to exercise some more care when first starting out. Knives like those from Takamura are thin even by Japanese standards so just require increased awareness.

Now, I'm the first to say that the fragility of Japanese knives is often overhyped, especially by some vendors, but there is no arguing there is some basis of truth in it. So the thinner the staring edge, when you're new, the more careful you need to be as you learn how they perform and react. That's all. So by getting a brand/offering that is a little thicker but still far better than western crap, then it just gives a little more cushion when learning.

As for SG2/R2, it's just a little more prone to fragility and a little more stubborn to raise a burr when sharpening than other steels, especially the broadly available "paper steel" families of aogami, ginsan, and shirogami. So, combined with a very thin edge, you need to be just a touch more attentive and it can be a touch more challenging to start out sharpening.

To be clear, none of this, in my opinion, is monumental and as long as you're mindful in use and conscious of it in sharpening, you'll be fine. There's no arguing the value in a Takamura and it will undoubtedly blow your mind when you use it! So congrats there. :) The thin edge will also aid in sharpening.

So then a little broader perspective... When I see a person who is new to both Japanese knives and sharpening targeting a knife like a Kurosaki, I immediately think that the person is fixated on looks, that it is stainless and that the steel is said to have good edge retention so it will last longer while they learn to sharpen. Of course that can be wrong, it's just the flag that pops up for me. And to be clear, I had some of that myself and did in fact own a Yu Kurosaki SG2 bunka early on. Great knives so again, not knocking the knife at all. There is so much out there that makes us hesitant, if not fearful of the non-stainless (aka carbon) steels that stainless or stainless clad helps provide a bit of a mental security blanket. That combined with a steel that provides a longer lasting edge, reported great performance, and sexy looks make it very attractive. But in fact a $100ish iron clad, carbon core, rustic offering might be better suited. Not necessarily, but possibly.

Further, I would encourage you to not look much further for replacements and different knives yet. You have the Takamura on the way, and again, it's a fantastic knife, so get it and use and really pay attention to it and how you feel about it. Does the balance feel right? Western handled knives will balance further back than wa handled knives. Is the spine too thin? Does it hurt after a while of use? Is the length right? Does food stick more than you like? Do you like the profile or would you like something flatter, more curved, etc.? Or maybe the more accurate question is, do you think you would like to try something different in any of those things?

It can take some amount of trial and error to focus in on what you like. For some of us it is more and for some less but most of us do not land on our preferred knife on the first one. That's part of the fun. It doesn't make any one knife bad at all, just not your style. Or, you may try different things and find yourself somewhere down the road right back at that Takamura. But you'll have a much better understanding of why.

As to starting out sharpening, there are varying schools of thought there as well. I like to think of them in three very broad categories of coarse, medium, and high(er). The most common crowd is the medium and often this is represented by the 1k stone. The idea here is the 1k is a good all purpose stone that can do a little grinding but still give a bit of a refined edge and is sort of the safe approach. The coarse crowd says to just drop down in grit so you get a burr quicker to understand what you're doing and coarse stones must form the basis of all sharpening anyway so why not start there? The high(er) crowd says you're getting a knife that usually has at least a decent, if not awesome edge, so you won't need to do much work on it for a while and a higher grit stone is more forgiving for starting out.

That's super simplified but you get the idea. I tend to have about one and a half feet in the coarse crowd.

Long I know, hope it helps some.
 
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Ok, thanks for clarifying. I knew this wasn't going to be a walk in the park, and I have nothing to compare it to, so here goes :)
A knife with a thin edge will be easier to raise a burr on than something meatier, so you have less of that higher wear resistance to fight. SG2 isn't bad, in my experience I was always able to get it sharp but once my skills progressed as a sharpener then I was able to get it "wow" sharp. I think that's the jump you'll notice more often with some of the "higher end" steels.

Do not go cheap on stones. Learning on good stones will speed you along your curve much faster than cheap, soft, mystery grit Amazon stones which can be...character building.
 
A knife with a thin edge will be easier to raise a burr on than something meatier, so you have less of that higher wear resistance to fight. SG2 isn't bad, in my experience I was always able to get it sharp but once my skills progressed as a sharpener then I was able to get it "wow" sharp. I think that's the jump you'll notice more often with some of the "higher end" steels.

Do not go cheap on stones. Learning on good stones will speed you along your curve much faster than cheap, soft, mystery grit Amazon stones which can be...character building.
Will not cheap out on those, absolutely not. It's already going to be a steep learning curve from the videos I'm watching, I don't want to have to worry about poor manufacturing in the equation. I'm guessing Sharpton is a legit brand since one of you guys recommended it?
 
Will not cheap out on those, absolutely not. It's already going to be a steep learning curve from the videos I'm watching, I don't want to have to worry about poor manufacturing in the equation. I'm guessing Sharpton is a legit brand since one of you guys recommended it?
Shapton is good, agree with their glass series being good for stainless or higher wear resistant knives.

I really like Naniwa Pro (formerly Chosera) as well, I think they're a bit more expensive. A Naniwa 800 and 3000 grit is an excellent 1-2 punch for most knives and is exactly what I use for sharpening my SG2 knives. Once you get sharpening down, you can survive off touch ups on the 3k for a very long time.
 
I'd personally say sharpening thin SG2 is fairly easy, and low-alloy carbons are super easy.

If you've never sharpened on a stone before, then it's probably best to start with a shapton glass 500. If you're flush with cash, then also grab an aroma 140 to flatten and condition the surface, and the shapton field glass holder. Otherwise you can use sandpaper on a flat surface instead of the atoma while you get started, but you will need some kind of stone holder.
 
Of course. Generally speaking, Japanese knives will have harder steel and thinner edges than typical western fare and especially compared to the crappy stuff. Crappy western knives can take a lot of abuse because the steel is soft and the edge bevels are thicker. Japanese knives are more vulnerable to edge (or worse) damage so one needs to exercise some more care when first starting out. Knives like those from Takamura are thin even by Japanese standards so just require increased awareness.

Now, I'm the first to say that the fragility of Japanese knives is often overhyped, especially by some vendors, but there is no arguing there is some basis of truth in it. So the thinner the staring edge, when you're new, the more careful you need to be as you learn how they perform and react. That's all. So by getting a brand/offering that is a little thicker but still far better than western crap, then it just gives a little more cushion when learning.

As for SG2/R2, it's just a little more prone to fragility and a little more stubborn to raise a burr when sharpening than other steels, especially the broadly available "paper steel" families of aogami, ginsan, and shirogami. So, combined with a very thin edge, you need to be just a touch more attentive and it can be a touch more challenging to start out sharpening.

To be clear, none of this, in my opinion, is monumental and as long as you're mindful in use and conscious of it in sharpening, you'll be fine. There's no arguing the value in a Takamura and it will undoubtedly blow your mind when you use it! So congrats there. :) The thin edge will also aid in sharpening.

So then a little broader perspective... When I see a person who is new to both Japanese knives and sharpening targeting a knife like a Kurosaki, I immediately think that the person is fixated on looks, that it is stainless and that the steel is said to have good edge retention so it will last longer while they learn to sharpen. Of course that can be wrong, it's just the flag that pops up for me. And to be clear, I had some of that myself and did in fact own a Yu Kurosaki SG2 bunka early on. Great knives so again, not knocking the knife at all. There is so much out there that makes us hesitant, if not fearful of the non-stainless (aka carbon) steels that stainless or stainless clad helps provide a bit of a mental security blanket. That combined with a steel that provides a longer lasting edge, reported great performance, and sexy looks make it very attractive. But in fact a $100ish iron clad, carbon core, rustic offering might be better suited. Not necessarily, but possibly.

Further, I would encourage you to not look much further for replacements and different knives yet. You have the Takamura on the way, and again, it's a fantastic knife, so get it and use and really pay attention to it and how you feel about it. Does the balance feel right? Western handled knives will balance further back than wa handled knives. Is the spine too thin? Does it hurt after a while of use? Is the length right? Does food stick more than you like? Do you like the profile or would you like something flatter, more curved, etc.? Or maybe the more accurate question is, do you think you would like to try something different in any of those things?

It can take some amount of trial and error to focus in on what you like. For some of us it is more and for some less but most of us do not land on our preferred knife on the first one. That's part of the fun. It doesn't make any one knife bad at all, just not your style. Or, you may try different things and find yourself somewhere down the road right back at that Takamura. But you'll have a much better understanding of why.

As to starting out sharpening, there are varying schools of thought there as well. I like to think of them in three very broad categories of coarse, medium, and high(er). The most common crowd is the medium and often this is represented by the 1k stone. The idea here is the 1k is a good all purpose stone that can do a little grinding but still give a bit of a refined edge and is sort of the safe approach. The coarse crowd says to just drop down in grit so you get a burr quicker to understand what you're doing and coarse stones must form the basis of all sharpening anyway so why not start there? The high(er) crowd says you're getting a knife that usually has at least a decent, if not awesome edge, so you won't need to do much work on it for a while and a higher grit stone is more forgiving for starting out.

That's super simplified but you get the idea. I tend to have about one and a half feet in the coarse crowd.

Long I know, hope it helps some.
That helps greatly, and I'm probably going to read this 50 times in the coming weeks.
 
All the Yu Kurosaki lines have the same grind, so just grab any other Kurosaki in 180mm
IIRC, my Syousin Chiku Migaki has a convex wide bevel, not the concave grind on the Shizuku. Maybe all of the recent ones ate the same, though?
 
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SG2 is not at all difficult to raise a burr on. Where it differs from carbon steels is that it's more difficult to ckeanly remove that burr cleanly and form a clean apex.

Not super difficult but requires more effort and concentration.

Once you have the basics of burr formation down pat, working on burr minimisation, burr reduction and deburring is the next quantum leap in sharpness.

You will probably pick this up quicker if you learn on a carbon steel but you definitely could learn on SG2.
 
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IIRC, my Syousin Chiku Migaki has a convex wide bevel, not the concave grind on the Shizuku. Maybe all of the recent ones ate the same, though?

Oh interesting. I thought all his stuff was concave wide bevel, but I stopped following him a couple years ago. Is the Syousin Chiku line newer?
 
+1 for Tanaquo Cutlery. Rich is a great guy, very fair, honest, and knowledgeable. Super responsive to customer inquiries too. I've bought several takamura knives from him in the past and will definitely do so again.
Me too both of my Takamuras came from him.
 
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