Best "bang for buck" in circa 1000 grit stones?

[Mr.Wizard]

I wish to assemble a budget set of sharpening stones that maximize value for the dollar. I have already ordered the first: a Suehiro Cerax 320. I have now turned my attention to a stone to follow this one. I suppose I need to consider what will come after that stone itself if I am to choose wisely. I probably want only a three stone set to minimize cost, but I would also consider a four stone progression if that is prevailing wisdom. The Naniwa Hayabusa 4000 has my present interest as a finishing stone.

King 1200x - My 2nd favorite 1k(ish) stone. This is IMO soooo much better of a stone than most everything out there. It allows for perfect feedback for locking up on the bevel, cuts super quick, and provides excellent pre-polish for jumping to 5-6k. Considering the cost it's highly recommended from me. Beware though - this isn't the crappy King 1k found everywhere, it's hard to imagine they're made by the same company.

At half the price of other the Bester 1200 I find the King 1200 appealing but I don't often see it recommended. I have read negative comments about King stones like "you'll grow a beard before the job is done" or "this thing wears down faster than a pencil eraser" but Dave is no fool. Could the King 1200 have a place in my progression or is it more specialized? Would it be fast enough to follow the Cerax 320? Will it set up well for a finishing stone in the 4K-5K range?

Is 1200 grit a reasonable choice? Are there other budget stones that would serve my purposes better?

 

[Matus]

I have made excellent experience with Gesshin 2000. It is very fast and being a higher grit stone it leaves finer scratch pattern. It also dishes slowly. I use it after 400 or 300 stone with no problem and it is followed by 6000. I have used several Gesshin and JNS stones in different grits, but the Gesshin is my favorite of the bunch (followed probably by the JNS 800).

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I imagine that is a fine stone but it is also very expensive. I am trying to assemble an entire set for that price. Also in terms of "bang for buck" as titled I am somewhat doubtful that it works four times better than the King 1200.

 

[mkriggen]

I have not tried the King 1200, but as you say, Dave ain't no dummy. The three I would recommend are the Gesshin 1200 (love this stone. Kinda soft, but makes great mud, feels good, and cuts fast.), the JNS 800 (if you like a softer stone), and the JNS 1000 (if you like a harder stone). It might be above your price range, but the Gesshin 2000 also has a great rep. My advice is give Dave and/or Jon a call and ask them what they think. I can tell you from personal experience that Jon will try to recommend the stone that will work for you, not the one that will make him the most money. You can expect the same treatment from Dave.

Bottom line, I recommend the Gesshin 1200 (did I mention that I love that stone?)

Be well,
Mikey

 

[Matus]

I imagine that is a fine stone but it is also very expensive. I am trying to assemble an entire set for that price. Also in terms of "bang for buck" as titled I am somewhat doubtful that it works four times better than the King 1200.

Point taken, but 4x the price is much easier to evaluate than 4x the performance I agree with Mike - give Jon or Dave a call - you will get very good advice and solution that will fit your budget.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Point taken as well. After I wrote that I thought: "Well, it could cut four times as fast, or last four times as long, so..."

Bottom line is that even $100 for a set of stones is a large expense for me so I am looking for the penny-pinching solution and trying to justify it as value-for-the-dollar.

 

[PushCut]

Do you live in the US Mr Wizard?
I believe Dave stated in a video that he uses a lot of pressure while sharpening. I wonder if the King 1200 is just a bad fit for people that don't use a lot of pressure? Is the King 1200 considered soft and/or muddy?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Yes, US citizen and resident. From what I can find it seems that it is somewhat soft and muddy but not to the extent of the King 1000. Would not high pressure be conducive to hard stones rather than soft ones however? That is both my experience and understanding.

 

[PushCut]

I guess I had that backwards. I don't have any answers for you, but what types of steels are you planning on sharpening?

 

[psfred]

Nothing terribly bad about King stones, but they are clay binder and fairly soft in comparison to ceramic or resin binder stones, and dish rather quickly. They cut well, but it's hard to keep them flat enough for woodworking tools -- it's necessary to flatten multiple times while sharpening a single plane iron, or it dishes both ways enough to prevent a decent result on the next stone up.

Used with care they should be OK for knives, and probably the cheapest set of stones for you would be a King 1000 or 1200 and a King S-3 6000. I've used the 6000 for a couple decades, it's an OK stone if you keep it flat and use light pressure -- again, it's a clay binder stone, I think, and will wear quickly if you are heavy handed.

Use light pressure and flatten often and those King stones will give you good edges. There are much better stones on the market for not a huge amount more, but for cheap sharpening, they are hard to beat. High pressure will strip grit off the stone faster than you would believe. They are not "muddy" stones -- the grit does not break down much, it just rolls off the stone and makes a mess without changing the way the stone cuts. They are quite fast on ordinary steels, don't know how they manage with high RC knives, I've not used them for that.

I may flatten mine again and try them, just for fun, although I moved on to a Bester 1200 years ago. I've not sharpened knives on the Kings, probably should just so I can say for sure what the differences are.

If you can squeeze out a tiny bit more cash, the Bester 1000 or 1200 is a much better value, I think, since it will last much longer and is easier to use, but for pure low cost, the Kings will work.

Peter

 

[daveb]

With your next stones it would serve you well to determine splash and go or soaker. The coarse stone will (prob) see intermittent use and can be either. The middle and finish stone in a three stone setup will likely be used together for the most part and simplicity suggests they be the same.

For me it's soakers, The best value for me is the G2K. Cuts well and quickly leaves knife ready for finishing. The Bestor 1,2K is also good and if you're in a price shoot-out (sounds like you are) for a "good" stone this may be optimum.. I'm becoming increasingly enamored with S&G, especially since the arrival of the Gesshin 1/6 K plates. My other stones are all working on their resumes.

When you've fine tuned your list to one or a couple you may want to post a WTB ad. You could end up with the stone you want for little more than postage.

 

[berko]

i think this would be a great addition to your setup.

 

[Ruso]

Also you can consider Shapton Pro 1000, its about 35USD at Tools From Japan. Bester 1000 is a good option as well and similar priced.
Add Suehiro Rika (5000) from the same site for 30USD
Shipping is about $10 if I remember correctly and you have a good set.

P.S. I have king, even though I do not use it that often I find it to be not a bad stone. I levitate towards Gesshin 2000 for medium work.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

what types of steels are you planning on sharpening?

I'd like to be able to work on just about anything that comes up, but of the knives I regularly work on a Hiromoto Aogami Super is the slowest to cut so my immediate needs are fairly basic. HAP40 or K390 has never crossed my hands, but I may see see ZDP-189 occationally.

If you can squeeze out a tiny bit more cash, the Bester 1000 or 1200 is a much better value, I think, since it will last much longer and is easier to use, but for pure low cost, the Kings will work.

The Bester is twice the price of the King 1200. Will it last twice as long? Perhaps in the long run it is the better value.

With your next stones it would serve you well to determine splash and go or soaker.

When you've fine tuned your list to one or a couple you may want to post a WTB ad. You could end up with the stone you want for little more than postage.

I guess I'd rather have splash-and-go stones but I did not want to add another requirement. The Hayabusa I may end with is apparently splash-and-go and it would be nice to have a similar medium grit stone.

I had not considered a WTB ad. I suppose there are a lot of people here who have moved on from the kind of budget stones I am considering. What are some good circa 1K splash-and-go stones I might hope to net this way?

i think this would be a great addition to your setup.

I had not noticed that combo. Thanks. I was planning to get one stone at a time so I could learn and react before getting the next one but I may consider that. However I don't think I've seen any recommendations for the Cerax 1000, so while inexpensive I worry about its quality.

Also you can consider Shapton Pro 1000, its about 35USD at Tools From Japan. Bester 1000 is a good option as well and similar priced.

With the addition of shipping these are very nearly twice the price of the King 1200. Do you feel that they are twice the product in an objective sense?

 

[Eric]

Shapton pro is a good 1000 grit and 5000 grit option, and all you will need. They perform well, splash and go, slow to dish and wear, easy to use.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Well at around 50.00 both the Bester 1000 and 1200 feel are a good bang for the buck. Used Kings for years do the job well. As Peter said have clay binder can be a little messy sharpening a lot of knives with quick strokes. Just like the Besters more.

 

[DanHumphrey]

Nothing terribly bad about King stones, but they are clay binder and fairly soft in comparison to ceramic or resin binder stones, and dish rather quickly. They cut well, but it's hard to keep them flat enough for woodworking tools -- it's necessary to flatten multiple times while sharpening a single plane iron, or it dishes both ways enough to prevent a decent result on the next stone up.

Used with care they should be OK for knives, and probably the cheapest set of stones for you would be a King 1000 or 1200 and a King S-3 6000. I've used the 6000 for a couple decades, it's an OK stone if you keep it flat and use light pressure -- again, it's a clay binder stone, I think, and will wear quickly if you are heavy handed.

Use light pressure and flatten often and those King stones will give you good edges. There are much better stones on the market for not a huge amount more, but for cheap sharpening, they are hard to beat. High pressure will strip grit off the stone faster than you would believe. They are not "muddy" stones -- the grit does not break down much, it just rolls off the stone and makes a mess without changing the way the stone cuts. They are quite fast on ordinary steels, don't know how they manage with high RC knives, I've not used them for that.

I may flatten mine again and try them, just for fun, although I moved on to a Bester 1200 years ago. I've not sharpened knives on the Kings, probably should just so I can say for sure what the differences are.

If you can squeeze out a tiny bit more cash, the Bester 1000 or 1200 is a much better value, I think, since it will last much longer and is easier to use, but for pure low cost, the Kings will work.

Peter

My King stones are dishing quickly, just like you said. What are some reasonably-priced stones that won't dish, or won't dish nearly as fast?

 

[psfred]

The Bester 1200 (and I assume the 1000, they are similar) wear as slowly as any stone out there for sharpening steel knives (and planes and chisels). At the rate I've had to flatten both the Bester stones and King stones, I'd say the Besters will last decades longer in light use. There is a HUGE difference.

Kings aren't so much of a bargain if they wear fast enough to have to be replaced a couple times in the time a Bester would wear out.

Peter

 

[Beans]

This thread is a year old so I'm wondering what Mr. Wizard wound up buying.

Here's a video of a guy who gives the pros and cons of seven 1000 grit stones. Note that there are two grades of King stones - KDS is the professional grade and is less muddy and dishy than the home grade. I'm not sure how good this reviewer is at sharpening but I thought it was kind of interesting. He using some terms like a stone feeling "snappy" that I don't know what he means.

[video=youtube;lXYJx2vGBQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXYJx2vGBQQ[/video]

 

[masibu]

that's so true about the kings not being such a bargain if they need to be replaced a few times. in my mind as well time is also money..if a king needs constant care/flattening and also cuts more slowly thats more time taken to get the same edge that a higher quality stone would have given you. most sharpening is done on 1000 grit stones so to me it makes the most sense to have a solid one that gets results quickly and efficiently without fuss. if money were an issue for me id be more inclined to go cheaper on a finishing stone than the coarse one (for knives anyway).

i use the sigma power 1200 from toolsfromjapan. it is a very solid stone, cuts fast and stays relatively flat and it's not very messy in use in comparison to some stones. it needs a solid soaking (leave mine submerged at work) to get it going however. I can't realistically say how long it will take to wear out- slowly enough for me not to even consider it.