Custom makers, deposits and the fallout from the PR (!!) fiasco

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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malexthekid said:
The risk that the knife can't be sold for full price, which is quite common.
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I would lean towards that the maker is out pricing his market if this is the case. I'm pretty sure if any of the customs Ian, Mareko, Devin, etc. did didn't go to the original buyer, they would be able to fetch more than the price he quoted for the custom.

That being said there are obviously customizations that some people pay additional for that others might not (upgraded handles and sayas).
 
Matus said:
I am just wondering - what risks does the maker has apart from the buyer ordering something completely weird (like double edged gyuto with pink stars on green handle) that would be hard to sell if the orderer is cancelled too late?
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mikedtran said:
I would lean towards that the maker is out pricing his market if this is the case. I'm pretty sure if any of the customs Ian, Mareko, Devin, etc. did didn't go to the original buyer, they would be able to fetch more than the price he quoted for the custom.

That being said there are obviously customizations that some people pay additional for that others might not (upgraded handles and sayas).
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You'd be surprised at some of the guys who have a hard time selling pre-made knives.

I think some perspective is necessary here. If someone takes 2 weeks to make a knife, and he has a 2 year waiting list, that's 50 people in line (at most).

Maybe there's someone in the line who's ready to go and wants what he has available, or maybe someone not on their books picks it up, but the point I'm making is that kitchen knife makers are usually not so in demand as we might think.

The other thing is that some makers spend a HUGE amount of time working with the customer, prior to making the knife. The cost of this time is built into the process and it's not fair to pass this on to another customer who didn't get the custom experience (at least this is the view of some smiths I've spoken to).
 
Those are valid points indeed - in particular when it comes to communication with the customer.

But I do think that most custom knives are not that far (for given maker) from his non-custom knives and are thus sellable as one of a kind. Most makers who do offer customs knives and here and there some direct sales do not seem to have hanging knives around for all that long before they sell - but that is only my personal impression, I am not following all tha many makers too closely, but just to name a few: Will Catchside, Bryan Raquin, Ian Haburn, Hoss, etc. I could not tell whether a knife XY was a custom or is a one of a kind knife that the maker made according to his own taste.

Once the custom knife was sold to 3rd party and as long as the price was about the same as planned, than the time spent working with the customer is also implicitly payed for.

Again - I am fine with some partial deposit that under conditions agreed may or may not be refundable, but would hesitat to pay a large fraction of the price upfront. One can think of different models when it comes to deposits - for example only take one once the discussion about the design and details starts (usually shortly before production) and materials are ordered.
 
Matus said:
Again - I am fine with some partial deposit that under conditions agreed may or may not be refundable, .
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THAT is important: it needs to be clearly stated that the deposit is non-refundable. I think Haburns $50 is non-refundable.... and I think that's absolutely fine, it's a small amount.

Larger amounts shouldn't be non-refundable, especially not in a case where the makers backs out (doesn't deliver) ...
 
About the deposit
It is not a shocking practice to ask for a deposit whatever is the knife. Something like 10% sounds pretty reasonable. The need of a deposit is, in my sense, highly dependent on the level of customisation. Meaning that if you ask for a knife that is super special, I would not be shocked to be ask for a bigger deposit, because it is indeed going to be more difficult to sell on the market.
In mind: I am left-handed. If I ask for a left-handed grind, I would not be shocked to have to pay more up-front.
About the rick about not seeing your money back: what others have written about paypal etc do actually insure the buyer. Moreover, it is also a small community thing: if someone gets a bad experience with a maker, it can share it on this forum or other and the maker will eventually loose his client.
 
I think the main problem here is makers biting off more than they can chew. Very easily done, especially if you are a one man band.
As far as a deposit, common sense would suggest that an appropriate amount would be found using the axes of level of customization vs. length of waiting list, no? If common sense is not being applied by one or the other (or both) of the parties involved, then caution should be excercised.
 
My two cents...

If you are willing to pay upfront for a Kickstarter project, that's effectively a mass produced item, you should be willing to pay upfront for a custom item made for you specifically. So having backed a number of Kickstarter campaigns, I would follow that rule. (Just to be clear, I didn't back Bulat or Misen. :p)

Personally, I think a small amount for reservation of a place in line, then full amount when work starts and timeline is clear is reasonable for both the maker and the customer.

Other than that, I think clear communication, expected times, etc. are all business practices that should be considered minimum customer service.
 
I think Dan brings up a good point on the amount of customization going into a project being an important factor in the deposit amount. If the maker is going to make me a unique single bevel that others would not like, I think it is fair to ask for a larger deposit at the time the knife production (forging/shaping) starts.

I personally feel comfortable with most knife makers making a nominal deposit of $50-$100 at the very onset to show that I am truly interested. On a very custom project I would likely be comfortable with 50% deposit at the onset of production with some understanding of estimated delivery time.
 
should exchange rates be considered here as well? At the time many deposits were made the exchange between the US and CND dollars was more on par. Now, there's a larger gap. So, not only is the value on the original dollar down, but to pay back means to pay more than the value of the deposit.

No excuses of course, just putting that out there for as a factor to consider for anyone wanting to purchase outside their country.

I'm still waiting for the Soviet knife I bought with Prussian francs. I think the franc is making a comeback, anyone else agree?
 
jessf said:
should exchange rates be considered here as well? At the time many deposits were made the exchange between the US and CND dollars was more on par. Now, there's a larger gap. So, not only is the value on the original dollar down, but to pay back means to pay more than the value of the deposit.
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well, that's completly the buyer's problem. The maker sell a product in its his own currency, which is OK. Now if the buyer want to buy, he has to adapt. If he does not want to take risk, he should buy goods sold in his own country. The same goes with custom taxes, VAT etc...
 
Many makers I have worked with do their entire pricing based on USD even if they are based in other countries.
 
Unless the maker keeps the deposit in US currency and intends to only spend it in US currency, they will at some point need to exchange into their own currency.

So, if the US and CDN dollar are on par, a depot of $300 US is equal to $300 CDN. Now Flash forward to the present when a request for that $300 back is made, the US and CDN dollar are no longer on par, so that $300 US deposit means that $388 CDN must be paid back.

Just something to consider when buying across the boarder. Your risk exposure increases when you factor this in.
 
chinacats said:
Many others do not...
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True, it really comes down to their choice and risk assessment of their current currency. Though such is life in buying/selling anything cross border.

I work with Japanese vendors and some take deposits for custom orders (Shigs, Katos, etc) in USD others in JPY. I have no preference which as I have cards/banks that do exact exchange with no charges either on the transaction or inflation of the exchange rate.
 
To each his own but my policy is if the waiting list is over 6 months I think very hard before I order. How bad do I need a knife I can wait that long for? If it is over a year just forget it. Very few makers with lists that go into the several year category don't end up in trouble with their customers sooner or later.
 
I've paid 100% to take advantage of sale/discount pricing. It has also helped when the CAD/USD drops (I've saved at least 10% from this on some transactions). I acknowledge there may be additional risk to such an approach but I felt the individuals are trustworthy. If something were to happen I probably wouldn't be able to rely on PayPal, and would have to resort to other recovery methods, but am quite certain I won't have to go those routes. Communication can go a long way in coming up with a game plan if needed as most people are understandable; trying to withdraw from the situation doesn't solve much and makes people upset.
 
Bloodroot didn't ask me to pay anything upfront, back then their waiting list was 31 months ... now it's 44 ... insane!


Noodle Soup said:
To each his own but my policy is if the waiting list is over 6 months I think very hard before I order. How bad do I need a knife I can wait that long for? If it is over a year just forget it. Very few makers with lists that go into the several year category don't end up in trouble with their customers sooner or later.
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alterwisser said:
Bloodroot didn't ask me to pay anything upfront, back then their waiting list was 31 months ... now it's 44 ... insane!
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Hmmm, I did have to pay $100 deposit (though I did not mind). I think I have some 12+ more months to go (it was 24 when I joined the queue)
 
zetieum said:
well, that's completly the buyer's problem. The maker sell a product in its his own currency, which is OK. Now if the buyer want to buy, he has to adapt. If he does not want to take risk, he should buy goods sold in his own country. The same goes with custom taxes, VAT etc...
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To me, that's the seller's problem. If you charge me a $100 deposit and your currency goes down and I deserve a refund, you make me whole ($100). Now, on the flip side, if you set prices in your own currency and leave it to the buyer to handle the exchange (probably via credit card), you're covered and the buyer gets back whatever your currency converts to.

I mean, if you took a deposit in dollars and your currency went the other way, would you refund the buyer extra money? I rather suspect not.
 
DanHumphrey said:
To me, that's the seller's problem. If you charge me a $100 deposit and your currency goes down and I deserve a refund, you make me whole ($100). Now, on the flip side, if you set prices in your own currency and leave it to the buyer to handle the exchange (probably via credit card), you're covered and the buyer gets back whatever your currency converts to.

I mean, if you took a deposit in dollars and your currency went the other way, would you refund the buyer extra money? I rather suspect not.
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I think that the situation outlined is unlikely to ever come up. I've never worked with any craftsman who didn't want to be paid in his own currency, and any dollar amounts (for non-US makers) were presented only for guidance purposes.

I would agree that with a refundable deposit, you should get paid back the same as you put in (in the same currency).
 
Actually the best deal for you is to agree all transactions are in USD (or whatever currency in your country of residence.) That way you have zero exchange risk so if he refunds your money, and the exchange rate went adversely, the vendor would have to make up the difference.

Conversely, it's advantageous for the maker to work in his home currency for the same reason, the other person assumes the volatility risk.

mikedtran said:
True, it really comes down to their choice and risk assessment of their current currency. Though such is life in buying/selling anything cross border.

I work with Japanese vendors and some take deposits for custom orders (Shigs, Katos, etc) in USD others in JPY. I have no preference which as I have cards/banks that do exact exchange with no charges either on the transaction or inflation of the exchange rate.
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I have, twice, paid the full price up front for knives to be made on a four month time scale. One was early, the other on the dot. If I'd been burned I wouldn't have to worry about it, it was within PayPal.

I can easily see where one person could get behind, especially with a day job, family, etc. I would be very sketched to hand over a deposit in that situation, but to a full time professional or small company with a reasonable time line, sure.
 
Very interesting discussion. Thank you everyone participating :)
 
Muahaha. MuahaHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough cough cough* hahaha.....
 
Whooohoooo!

I was going crazy in solitary confinement. I doubt I will make it through parole though hahahaha.

To be honest, I had a chance to browse some other forums for some other hobbies. Fountain Pen people are strangely Pleasant Town friendly. Foodies are the worst snobs of all forums but seldom get into arguments. Audiophiles have too much discretionary income for my tastes. You have to be at least 1/4 troll to survive the fight forums for more than 48 hours.

Nice to see a fellow MF Doom fan brainsausage. So many who just don't understand. :doublethumbsup:
 
Chef Doom said:
Nice to see a fellow MF Doom fan brainsausage. So many who just don't understand. :doublethumbsup:
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I'm guessing Gaudi got it?
ff38c265e7f6620bb0fa155f7f375d6a.jpg
 
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