Cut Brooklin on NPR

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DitmasPork said:
Geez, surprised at the negativity towards Brooklyn, hipsters, and Brooklyn Cut! Is it just thinly veiled professional jealously?
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Maybe its just me, but I did not read this thread as anything negative towards Brooklyn, Joel, or Cut Brooklyn, in fact I am reading it towards the positive.
 
kalaeb said:
Maybe its just me, but I did not read this thread as anything negative towards Brooklyn, Joel, or Cut Brooklyn, in fact I am reading it towards the positive.
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+1

Exposure for the industry should be good for those involved. As people learn about knives through NPR and other media outlets, many who are interested will go out and find the 'good,' which should be of benefit to any of the craftsmen/vendors here who excel at what they do--namely all the craftsmen/vendors here. I think of this as being the best type of publicity imaginable--positive and free!
 
There has been a few attempts at contacting him for a knife, to do a pass a round. From what I understand if you don't have twitter to snatch up a blade when it posts you are sol. To a few people he has been rude.

I have not talked or met him. But from the feedback I have read here (just search brooklyn and you will see the threads) is what most are talking about. And I am sure you are getting from the postings.
 
Hipster

From Urban Dictionary

Hipsters are a subculture of men and women typically in their 20's and 30's that value independent thinking, counter-culture, progressive politics, an appreciation of art and indie-rock, creativity, intelligence, and witty banter. The greatest concentrations of hipsters can be found living in the Williamsburg, Wicker Park, and Mission District neighborhoods of major cosmopolitan centers such as New York, Chicago, and San Francisco respectively.
 
That's a pretty positive definition there :)
 
Sorry if I offended anyone by using the term "hipster".It was not meant in a negative connotation,like I said not all hipsters are annoying.
It's a word bandied about now a days to describe a certain sub culture of today's youth,some are true hipsters,some are wannabees.
Didn't mean anything negative about Joel or his company.
 
When I saw this video back in December it completely sparked my interest in knifemaking. 9 months later I've made about 16 knives and I'm only getting better with each blade. I respect Joel because he works extremely hard and built his company up from nothing, I've never heard of him using O1 on any of his knives, it always appears to either be 1095, stainless, 52100, or CPM carpenter steel. I like that his blades are more of a french profile, I personally think a knife with a belly makes you work harder in the kitchen. The only thing I don't like is that he sends his knives away for heat treatment, but whoever does it must be precise, because his knives have nothing but positive reviews. The handles on the other hand I've always been confused about, some are listed as walnut, but clearly have some sort of black micarta or synthetic scale under what looks like wood, but I can never tell by the photo if it's real wood or synthetic. Also, I feel a knife you're going to drop more than $200 on should have a Bolster, but that's just like, my opinion man.

I use O1 exclusively on my knives, mainly because it's relatively easy to work with and tough as hell when properly heat treated. I'd love to get into using some varieties of stainless, but I would need a shop somewhere other than my garage where I'd be more comfortable doing cryogenic quenching.

Rader makes some amazing knives! Truly beautiful and artistic handmade damascus, the conclusion I've come up with about popularity is that he spends more time on his craft, which takes much more time and dedication forming your own damascus and blades with a hammer, heat treating, etc. etc. When you send away for heat treatment, or any other process in making your knife, you've got that much more time to dedicate to social media.

I'll be working on a dedicated facebook page for my knives this month, if I can get 1 customer as a result, I'll consider it a successful investment of time.

Cheers to those who inspire others to do great things with their free time!

-Matt.
 
What's wrong with sending out for heat treating?
 
Matt, I applaud your casual Dude quote. I think unless you are forging every blade from scratch, I see no reason why every handmade knife shouldn't be waterjet or laser cut and heat treated at a reputable place.

He says without saying it in the interview that Brad Stallsmith does his heat treating. Especially when it comes to Crucible steels, that is a major selling point in my book.
 
DitmasPork said:
Geez, surprised at the negativity towards Brooklyn, hipsters, and Brooklyn Cut! Is it just thinly veiled professional jealously?l[/url]
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I have read this whole thread and did not see any negativity towards Cut Brooklyn.As far as "hipsters" that's just laughable.I doubt there is professional jealousy.Knife makers are the nicest group of folks I have ever meet,willing to help each other out at a drop of a hat.
 
Yes, I wonder too, what is up about CB? Every thread about him bring emotions. Let him be and make his knives (and market them) any way he likes it. And that he is not on the forums, so what? His customer base is outside of the forums.

He has done a great job promoting his business, almost Kramer-like, and from a business stand point, he should be applauded for. Does his work deserve all this attention? You have one of his knives passed around currently, so make up your mind by either partaking or following the feedback of others.

Yes, I agree that most emotions are driven by professional (or just plain) jealousy. Reminiscent of Kramer posts.

If many think that by bashing CB they stand up for a small-time-maker like guys here on the forum, well, they can stand up for themselves, by making knives and putting them against CB (or any maker for that matter) in sportsman-like competition and have the user decide. Competition is good, it makes you try harder and produces a better result ultimately. At least this is how it works in sports.

M
 
Do you think Korin has done well because of location?I know Chiharu Sugai has had some media coverage.I think raising peoples awareness on knives is a good thing.
 
RRLOVER said:
I too would like to know what's wrong with sending out for HT.
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I'm not going to state there's a direct problem with it, but another knifemaker said, "when you send your knives away to someone else to be heat treated, you immediately lose your control over the quality of your steel."

When I read that it kind of stuck in my head, I think i also have a bad perception of it because so many places around puget sound that do heat treatment do bulk steel and I doubt they've ever touched a knife blank. I had such a hard time finding high carbon precision ground flat stock in the Puget Sound area i nearly gave up on it. Online metals has it, but I don't like the quality of theirs for some reason. Bohler-Uddeholm has some fantastic stuff and data-sheets available right on their site.

As for joel, in his video I'm fond of, he states the heat treatment is the heart and soul of a knife, if you don't get it just right, it's crap. That's a lot of trust to put in someone else for a piece you'll spend 15-30 hours on depending on the details.

I have a bit of contempt for Seattle hipsters, I can't really speak for Brooklyn hipsters, one of my best friends growing up has moved to Brooklyn and is your typical, "roof-top dinner at sunset with the empire state building in the background photo-op" kind of hipster and He's a great guy, a good writer, witty, and smart. But the people I run into in Seattle who anyone would call a hipster seem to be more rude, ego-centric, and making Heroin the comeback drug. Seattle hipsters are the kind of people you expect to see walking down the street, stepping over someone dying in the gutter, while editing a playlist on their iphone. I think it's a neglect towards building community that really gets me riled up about their general attitude.

Anyway, I don't see Joel as a hipster, he is a craftsman, an artist, a businessman, and passionate about creating something handmade and exquisite. It's his attitude and passion that are selling his knives, I think he'd do well in any major city, but the fact that Knife shops in New York faded out with the industrial revolution, and he's opened a handmade shop in an urban foodie area make it prime for hipster logic, "It's independent and not well known, I must have it to exploit how trendy I am" The only problem with that is at some point hipsters won't want it anymore. But then the wealthy elitists will catch on to it and he'll be set for life. :razz:
I spotted one of his Journeymen 240's on a Guy Ferrarrrri(sp?) show drive-ins diners and dives. As soon as they said they were in Brooklyn and showed the chef working in the kitchen I was hunting to see one, and sure enough, there it was, with a light blue handle. Joel has a good network, a good product, and a sea of chef's who will purchase, show off, and treasure his work until they can pass it on to a family member 20 years from now.

I'd personally love to talk knives with the guy and thank him for inspiring me with a craft that is so fulfilling I will do it until I die.
 
rant

I sent my smoker plans to the sheet metal provider, and for the tiniest of fees they are laser cutting and bending the sheets to my specs as per the AutoCad file, cheaper and more precise than I could ever do in my small shop. I will evaluate their quality when I receive it. The quality of my product hasn't gone down until I allow it to leave the shop with my name on it.

A chef, especially the larger ones, is not in their kitchen from open to close. They rely on competent others to perform as they were instructed by chef. If quality suffers the chef finds new others, or goes under. Having someone else do the work doesn't necessarily mean you have lost control of quality.

In my office job my boss probably did what I did for 20 years, 15 at least that I can count. He doesn't do it any more because he has me to do this so he can do other jobs. Did his quality go down? No, and he occasionally verifies the work that goes out with his name on it to ensure it lives up to it. He doesn't always check because I do my job very well, and have a documented procedure that I created and follow to ensure it is always done well. He only checks at all because he's a responsible boss and we are all human.

Taking it to the next step, if you define a ridgid procedure, and that procedure is ridgidly followed, then by verifying that procedure as producing high quality product you no longer need to review every single product for quality, only spot check to ensure the procedure is actually being rigidly followed, otherwise you could never do a thousand of something, or a million, cost effectively and consistently with high quality.

/rant

I see nothing wrong with sending out a knife or knives to be heat treated by someone you trust. You don't lose control of your quality unless you fail to ensure your quality standards are beign followed and allow the product to leave your shop as such.
 
Good points,

But if Picasso and Monet sent their paintings away for someone to brush in the blues and Yellows, would that take the soul out of their work?
 
Also a good point. The difference between an artist and an industrialst can be thin. Does the artist make his own brushes? His own paint? His own canvass? Some yes, some parts yes, some no. If you buy paint and brushes and canvass but the expression is your's, then it's your art. if I buy steel and have it processed the way I need (hardness, cut, whatever) but the choil and the spine and the tang and the belly and the tip and the thinness and the bevel/s are all mine, then it's my knife, regardless of where the steel came from.

Not everyone forges an axe blade from an old leaf spring, nor does everyone need to.

I think if the knife maker had someone grind the secondary bevel or the taper or the radius, then himself grinds, hones and polishes the edge, perhaps he is less of a knife maker than a knife sharpener, but then you have to ask where do you draw the line? Maybe someone else draws the line in a different place.
 
Carl said:
Taking it to the next step, if you define a ridgid procedure, and that procedure is ridgidly followed, then by verifying that procedure as producing high quality product you no longer need to review every single product for quality, only spot check to ensure the procedure is actually being rigidly followed, otherwise you could never do a thousand of something, or a million, cost effectively and consistently with high quality.
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Carl,

I would agree with you for just about everything except the part I quoted above...I think that in the case of low level production such as knives that you do need to review every single piece to ensure your exacting standards are being met. That said, from reading some of the reviews about his knives I believe he knows how to maintain this control and put out quality pieces that do very well in his target market. You make very valid points in your rant:)

Cheers
 
Well, I'm not looking to bicker, we could argue it all the way down to dead stars littering our solar system with elements, but that would take a while to get to. I guess my point being, heat treating is an art to me more than science. The science of it is simple, the art of it is complex. As a knife-maker, a young knife-maker, that bit of it is important to me and what I am creating.
Not to say I wouldn't be giddy as **** if Kramer wanted to heat treat one of my knives. There is value to his method and to his art. If a steel mill wants to heat treat my knives, I'd be flattered, but have to decline.

But again, that's just like, my opinion man. I'll respect yours if you can respect mine. There's something wonderful about doing it all yourself, whether it's fixing your car, making your own BBQ sauce from scratch, or brewing your own beer. But then again, there's also joy in lasers and machines, if there wasn't there'd be no joy in the Terminator Franchise.
 
Concerning heat treating............ There are pro's and con's for doing your own heat treating. I do think that the best HT can be done by the maker in his own shop. Any maker doing his own needs to become familiar with the steels and the recommended HT for those steels that they are using. There is a learning curve with HT, just like there's one for grinding, handles etc.

I have seen many new knife makers with inadequate HT equipment, making up wild HT procedures, and claiming unbelievable results. The truth is that they have an inferior knife/blade.

Those makers who send out there blades can be confident that they are getting professional results. It takes thousands of dollars to get set up to do your own HT, just ask Marko.

Hoss
 
I was thinking the same Devin all knifemakers are not equipped to do HT.Is it not like other forms of manufacture where one shop specializes in part of the production.I was surprized when I inquired about the HT on the Artiflex AEB-L Gyuto that even a Co. like Lamson & Goodlow send the blanks out to Peter's Heat Treatment.I don't care if they are Machine ground,you can always put on your own polished convex edge.But to me anyway the heat treatment is very important.
 
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