Media Cut Brooklyn: Made by Hand

[jmforge]

He got a TW90 to go along with his two KMG's. Nice!!!

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Hey Eamon, did you get a response from Joel about a a pass-around?

 

[mr drinky]

I also think he said when he started making kitchen knives, there were only 4 or 5 guys in the States doing this.

I was thinking about that too when he said it. I wonder who Joel was thinking of back then when he stated. Kramer and Carter definitely.

k.

 

[mr drinky]

Btw, on his site he lists MKS designs out of Boston as a friend. They make those odd bike handle knives. We might be surprised by Joel's A-list of makers.

k.

 

[Eamon Burke]

Hey Eamon, did you get a response from Joel about a a pass-around?

Yeah, he was pretty bloody rude to me about it, sounds like someone really shat in his cereal sometime in the past. He thought I was telling him that we can tell him how to do his job better and maybe allow him into the cool kids club. Maybe it was the "Brooklyn Toughness" that Bobby Flay is always talking about. I told him the offer still stands, his personality has nothing to do with his knives and it'd be great to have one to get some exposure with us junkies. Seems to me like he is just happy selling them in New York state, and his past experiences on forums left him with a shockingly bitter disposition about it.

As I've said before, my surprise about makers not participating on the forum at all is that it seems strange that they would turn down the chance to sell knives to a bunch of people who clearly throw down money on good knives on a monthly basis. It is surprising to me to hear that there is even one maker, Bob Kramer included, who does nothing but churn out kitchen knives for a living and is so satisfied with their income and workload and quality of life that they don't want any more business. I really hope that is the case, because it hasn't been for about half a century.

 

[Chef Niloc]

Dave beat around the bush befor, ther was some "negative taulk" about his stuff on the other bord a few years back ( nothing to do with Dave). I didnt think he'd still be all bent up about it??? Maybe he's gong for that " Carter" attitude??

I'd still love to know what his "A" list is, I can think of a few that should be on it

 

[Chef Niloc]

Yeah, he was pretty bloody rude to me about it, sounds like someone really shat in his cereal sometime in the past. He thought I was telling him that we can tell him how to do his job better and maybe allow him into the cool kids club. Maybe it was the "Brooklyn Toughness" that Bobby Flay is always talking about. I told him the offer still stands, his personality has nothing to do with his knives and it'd be great to have one to get some exposure with us junkies. Seems to me like he is just happy selling them in New York state, and his past experiences on forums left him with a shockingly bitter disposition about it.

As I've said before, my surprise about makers not participating on the forum at all is that it seems strange that they would turn down the chance to sell knives to a bunch of people who clearly throw down money on good knives on a monthly basis. It is surprising to me to hear that there is even one maker, Bob Kramer included, who does nothing but churn out kitchen knives for a living and is so satisfied with their income and workload and quality of life that they don't want any more business. I really hope that is the case, because it hasn't been for about half a century.

I think he's on Facebook, that's kind of close right?

 

[mr drinky]

Interesting about his response. With that said, even without us wierdos he gets some pretty good press and seems to be doing well. I think it helps that he is selling knives in an urban area that is a foodie hotbed right now. I was going to buy a knife of his in this last year, tried calling a few times but never got through to talk to him, eventually left a message telling him which knife I wanted to purchase, and I never got a call back. He must not need sales.

k.

 

[jmforge]

I have heard rumor that there may be a factory line of Cut Brooklyn knives coming soon to a Williams-Sonoma near you. That makes sense as Joel is probably the only guy right now other than Bob Kramer who is known by any card carrying members of the general public thanks to the press he has gotten and W-S is not going to sit idly by and let some upstart competitor like SLT have all of the fun. I think that at this point, he known outside of New York. perhaps almost as well known as Mr. kramer. It doesn't hurt when you get multiple write ups in the biggest media market in the country, ya know.

 

[mano]

From first hand experience and second hand accounts Joel is a very nice guy, so Eamon's experience with him was the exception. For a solo knife maker he's caught lighting in a bottle. The few knives he sells online every Wednesday are gone quick, there's a backlog of custom orders and he has a line of semi-custom or production knives coming out, probably through WS.

There's no upside to him coming here or to other boards, much less doing a pass around. IF he's well received the "bunch of people" who will buy his knives are a few dozen. Maybe. He's competing with makers of forged knives and his prices are well above those, like Dave, who don't forge their own metal. If the reaction is negative it's a hassle he doesn't need.

The press he gets is untainted by slight of hand or deceit. The guy's a legit knife maker. Like or don't like his work, but IMO any negativity may be jealousy or anger because he won't participate here.

I wish him all the best.

 

[tgraypots]

Mano, you express yourself very well. Well thought out and written. All good points, and I have to agree.

 

[Chef Niloc]

I have heard rumor that there may be a factory line of Cut Brooklyn knives coming soon to a Williams-Sonoma near you. That makes sense as Joel is probably the only guy right now other than Bob Kramer who is known by any card carrying members of the general public thanks to the press he has gotten and W-S is not going to sit idly by and let some upstart competitor like SLT have all of the fun. I think that at this point, he known outside of New York. perhaps almost as well known as Mr. kramer. It doesn't hurt when you get multiple write ups in the biggest media market in the country, ya know.

Bob is a friendly and believe it or not a humble man. I don't think cut Brooklyn will hit his status. Wild fire had a short run at some shop, Nuff sad

 

[jmforge]

My comment was not meant as a shot at Mr. Kramer. I just think that W-S is not going to let SLT "corner" that particular part of the market. From what I have read, the sales of the ZK line have been good and have gotten SLT some extra press. I was in the SLT store in Sarasota the other day trying to find a carbon Sabatier and one of he employees asked me if I wanted to look at the "Bill Kramer knives" so even clueless clerks know they are hot.:lol2:

Bob is a friendly and believe it or not a humble man. I don't think cut Brooklyn will hit his status. Wild fire had a short run at some shop, Nuff sad

 

[add]

From first hand experience and second hand accounts Joel is a very nice guy, so Eamon's experience with him was the exception. For a solo knife maker he's caught lighting in a bottle. The few knives he sells online every Wednesday are gone quick, there's a backlog of custom orders and he has a line of semi-custom or production knives coming out, probably through WS.

There's no upside to him coming here or to other boards, much less doing a pass around. IF he's well received the "bunch of people" who will buy his knives are a few dozen. Maybe. He's competing with makers of forged knives and his prices are well above those, like Dave, who don't forge their own metal. If the reaction is negative it's a hassle he doesn't need.

The press he gets is untainted by slight of hand or deceit. The guy's a legit knife maker. Like or don't like his work, but IMO any negativity may be jealousy or anger because he won't participate here.

I wish him all the best.

It also sounds fairly well controlled...

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Interesting about his response. With that said, even without us wierdos he gets some pretty good press and seems to be doing well. I think it helps that he is selling knives in an urban area that is a foodie hotbed right now. I was going to buy a knife of his in this last year, tried calling a few times but never got through to talk to him, eventually left a message telling him which knife I wanted to purchase, and I never got a call back. He must not need sales.

k.

To get an article published in the New York Times costs 5-7K (you kid yourself if you think a reported researchers and writes about it on their own), so if you have money, finding an agent is not a problem. A good friend of mine is a reporter, he enlightened me on a subject.

As for people not joining the forums, for some it's like jumping in a den of lions. Forum folks might put one on a spot with questions like how much mid-tech is one's mid-tech (CB talked about going mid-tech for a while now) and conclude it might be a production knife instead, plus the scrutiny of ones work (not a bad thing in my opinion). Why deal with all of this if you can deal with public who knows little, yet is willing to listen (stories help sell a product) and spend money on things made locally. In case of CB they get a better knife than what you get at Macy's and feel they support a local business.

As for a personal development, I think it is a mistake not to challenge yourself by exposing your knives to people who know something about knives. Stepping of your comfort zone would make you a better maker over time, but also could make your realize thing you have always known (I know how little I know, to quote Plato).

M

PS: @ mano, I would not discount forums are the representatives of the rest of the world. Perhaps a bit more critical and knowledgeable. If you have a first hand experience with CB knives, would you consider to send it to one of the people on the forum who can review them objectively? I think it would be more productive than jumping to conclusion that it is about jealousy about one's success.

 

[jmforge]

So Marko......are you saying that the sainted New York Times has finally gone over to the dark side and is doing the "aditorial" thing like some bush league weekly community paper from Vermont? As George Takei woild say "OH, MYYYYYY!!!!!!"

To get an article published in the New York Times costs 5-7K (you kid yourself if you think a reported researchers and writes about it on their own), so if you have money, finding an agent is not a problem. A good friend of mine is a reporter, he enlightened me on a subject.

As for people not joining the forums, for some it's like jumping in a den of lions. Forum folks might put one on a spot with questions like how much mid-tech is one's mid-tech (CB talked about going mid-tech for a while now) and conclude it might be a production knife instead, plus the scrutiny of ones work (not a bad thing in my opinion). Why deal with all of this if you can deal with public who knows little, yet is willing to listen (stories help sell a product) and spend money on things made locally. In case of CB they get a better knife than what you get at Macy's and feel they support a local business.

As for a personal development, I think it is a mistake not to challenge yourself by exposing your knives to people who know something about knives. Stepping of your comfort zone would make you a better maker over time, but also could make your realize thing you have always known (I know how little I know, to quote Plato).

M

PS: @ mano, I would not discount forums are the representatives of the rest of the world. Perhaps a bit more critical and knowledgeable. If you have a first hand experience with CB knives, would you consider to send it to one of the people on the forum who can review them objectively? I think it would be more productive than jumping to conclusion that it is about jealousy about one's success.

 

[bcrano]

But wait. Does anyone have his knives? Are they any good?

 

[mano]

PS: @ mano, I would not discount forums are the representatives of the rest of the world. Perhaps a bit more critical and knowledgeable. If you have a first hand experience with CB knives, would you consider to send it to one of the people on the forum who can review them objectively? I think it would be more productive than jumping to conclusion that it is about jealousy about one's success.

The point is someone who is very successful selling a luxury niche product without "objective" reviews has nothing to gain and everything to lose by volunteering their product for review. When Joel denies his peers, who include other makers and "knife nuts" the chance to review his wares we are understandably irritated. The sole reason he's saying no is because of his success; it's not a good business decision. It's not so much we're jealous of his success, but of the fact he can get away with rudely (perhaps) say no. And people will still buy his knives!

The "knowledgeable people" on these fora are quite atypical. The folks who typically buy CB custom knives are affluent and not necessarily educated or savy about cutlery. They're disinterested in blade geometry and so forth. I know this because a close relative went with a friend to pick up several knives she ordered. The discussion between the three of them was particularly about that point.

If we want a CB review, someone who bought one will have to do it.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

So Marko......are you saying that the sainted New York Times has finally gone over to the dark side and is doing the "aditorial" thing like some bush league weekly community paper from Vermont? As George Takei woild say "OH, MYYYYYY!!!!!!"

No, what I have said has been a business practice that all newspaper engage in, though I was taken aback when I learned about it. So to paraphrase, if I had 5-7K to spend, and would like to be written about in NY Times, I would approach an agent and pitch an idea and given list of point that article should include. The cost will depend on size of an article.

@ mano
I might sound sarcastic in some of my posts, but I do take an issue when people make unsubstantiated claims (faulty of that myself, but would retract if untrue). In the first CB video rolled out a year or two ago, Joel makes a claim that best knives come from Japan, Europe and Brooklyn. He might have said jokingly, but it still carries weight.

Knifemaking is like cooking. Being a line cook doesn't make you a chef. To become a chef takes more then just a desire to cook - it takes education, practice, experience, creativity, etc. And a chef knows how to cook a meal from the beginning to the end, even if he does not do some of these things himself. A chef also knows how to tweak things to get more or different effect.

A review or a pass-around would have given an opportunity to clear the air and perhaps to substantiate some of the claims.

As for Bob Kramer making a similar statement (better than other guys) he might be correct. In some ways he is much better than most makers, but not all.

M

 

[jmforge]

Marko, I was just being a bit silly. I have been in and around the publishing and print advertising biz since i was a wee lad, including a few years selling advertising. By saying that the cost of the article depends on the size, that tells me that they are charging you by the column inch to place your alleged editorial piece, which is how you do display and classified advertising in a major daily or most publications of that ilk. Knowing what I do about the New York Times, I am sure that they do not freely admit to doing such things even if they don't actually come out and deny that they have gone over to an advertorial format in their lifestyle section and what have you. Its kind of funny that you can actually freely engage in this "payola" style activity nowadays. I don't think that major metropolitan dailys have engaged in this type of activity for as long as you think. The combination of the internet and other competitors and the daily papers' long running poor "order taker" business model has put many of them on the skids, so they are now trying to drive revenue in any way they can.

No, what I have said has been a business practice that all newspaper engage in to. I was taken aback when I learned about it. So to paraphrase, if I had 5-7K to spend, and would like to be written about in NY Times, I would approach an agent and pitch an idea. The cost will depend on size of an article.

M

 

[Eamon Burke]

I just don't see what he had to lose. He'd get the knife back, he has a success cushion, and I offered to deal with all the "hassle" for him. He could just toss a knife this way as a signal of standing behind his product and maybe picking up a few fans. this is what Thomas Haslinger did. Murray Carter is happy to putdown talk of his sharpening being sloppy by honing up a knife, he was even in the sharpening olympics back in the day. But we can talk carter because lots of folks have them, same for the $3k Kramer...but no Cut Brooklyn.

 

[mr drinky]

Mano, you express yourself very well. Well thought out and written. All good points, and I have to agree.

I have to agree with tgraypots and mano on this one. Good points.

And how else does a maker like Schmidt Brothers get a knife deal with West Elm? Have you ever heard of them? I haven't until a couple months ago, but they come to my house (via adverts) every couple of months through a national catalog. They have NO DESIRE to submit their knives to our geeky scrutiny.

k.

P.S. We can still do a 'private' pass around. I could buy a Cut Brooklyn and send it on its route to you guys.

 

[add]

I just don't see what he had to lose. He'd get the knife back, he has a success cushion, and I offered to deal with all the "hassle" for him. He could just toss a knife this way as a signal of standing behind his product and maybe picking up a few fans. this is what Thomas Haslinger did. Murray Carter is happy to putdown talk of his sharpening being sloppy by honing up a knife, he was even in the sharpening olympics back in the day. But we can talk carter because lots of folks have them, same for the $3k Kramer...but no Cut Brooklyn.

The Carters and Kramers of the world have the chops and "paid" their dues... any indifference they might have is not based on a body of work that has already been closely scrutinized.

IMHO, playing it safe in your cocoon is a lack of confidence in one's work.

At some point, someone with bonafides will do a peer review of his work, should only be a matter of time...

 

[ajhuff]

+1 on Mano's thoughts

I can understand his lack of involvement. Right now he has virtually zero negative reviews (lots of negative supposition) and he is in control of that. Why risk that? Why give it up? There is no reason for him to get involved UNTIL he starts getting negative reviews or loses control.

 

[add]

+1 on Mano's thoughts

I can understand his lack of involvement. Right now he has virtually zero negative reviews (lots of negative supposition) and he is in control of that. Why risk that? Why give it up? There is no reason for him to get involved UNTIL he starts getting negative reviews or loses control.

IMHO, playing it safe in your cocoon is a lack of confidence in one's work.

Seems he might be more interested in a business model than making the best knives he can...

 

[ajhuff]

Maybe, makes sense to me!!!

-AJ

 

[Eamon Burke]

I can see now why he is shy to do it, and how he assumed what he did. You know, not all passarounds are to give the maker a talking down to and tell them how to do their thing.

It isn't a choice between avoiding passarounds/forums and making the best knife possible. His knives could well be awesome, and his sales and happy, productive chefs mean he doesn't need to change a thing. I was only offering exposure for us nerds, who represent sales and promotions with no effort or noticeable investment. worst case scenario, we all hate them, and he continues to be busy and successful without us.

 

[bcrano]

I think the handles are really ugly. If I ever got one it would be sent straight to Dave for reprogramming.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

The perils of pass-arounds is that you must be prepared to receive a constructive criticism in public. A safer way is to send your knives for a private feedback first, apply recommendations and then do a public pass-around.

In case of CB, Joel cultivated a reputation and following and getting a constructive criticism or even possible trashing on a knife forum would not bode well with that.

Pass-arounds are not any different then tests, exams, competitions, etc. You prepare and demonstrate the best of your skill and have others evaluate you. And forums are perfect for this as you typically have a good mix of participants ranging from pros to amateurs.

I have to admit that I have learned tremendously from people on the forum and continue learning, so to me it's indispensable.



M

 

[jmforge]

I think that an argument could be made that the time for a passaround and constructive criticism is BEFORE you become famous.