Do I need natural stones

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liren1 said:
Any opinions on Uchigumori stones ? What kind of knives would they suit the most ? Trying to make up my mind ..
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I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.
 
dwalker said:
I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.
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I did, that's what he recommended, that's why I'm inclined to take it, just wanted to know what experience the esteemed members of this forum have with this stone.
 
I have one on the way so my experience is exactly none with an uchi at this point. I do know they are beloved by many. I'm sure someone will chime in.
 
Sin Watanabe is A+++ in my book. He's so knowledgeable and generous with his time and his English is excellent. He's also used to advising Noobs like us too. I don't think I've ever heard anyone unhappy with his stones. Some of them are just natural works of art.
 
I have to admit I do love the Belgian Blue as a touchup stone (once I learned how not to scratch it!), given it is splash and go and known to not raise burrs or wire edges easily, but that is a very different beast I guess from the whole JNat culture...
 
I guess people here won't find it too surprising that I decided to take it. So in one week time (barring any customs holds up) I will have my first natural stone, yay...
 
dwalker said:
I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.
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Never a truer word has been uttered. Such a gentleman and incredibly knowledgable.
 
liren1 said:
I guess people here won't find it too surprising that I decided to take it. So in one week time (barring any customs holds up) I will have my first natural stone, yay...
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I'm sure you will enjoy it, but if you dont, put it up here and I'm sure someone else will. There is little financial risk in quality jnats from reputable vendors so rest easy. The biggest risk is getting hooked and coveting every nice stone you see.
 
dwalker said:
The biggest risk is getting hooked and coveting every nice stone you see.
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Can't agree more, but I just try to live vicariously through other members like Badger. His videos/pics and descriptions are so well done, they've saved me thousands.

I think my J-nat itch has been scratched with a full sized creamy hard Oohira Suita with tons of purple red renge from Aframes and a super fine Oozuku Suita Asagi along with a set of asano naguras from Maxim.

Those stones along with a soft aiwatani koppa and soft Oohira and the 1/6K JKI Diamonds encompass my whole kit.

Unless I'm thinning and that takes another set of tools.
 
Changing the subject a bit, but still Watanabe - has anyone used his diamond stone AI Diamond ? Kind of expensive at 68000 Yen.
 
would people recommend natural stones on stainless steel and if so, what types, grits, hardness, etc?
 
ABranson said:
would people recommend natural stones on stainless steel and if so, what types, grits, hardness, etc?
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In my opinion, Jnats are effective on any steel. However, if you are referring to softer western stainless steels, I feel like they are a waste. I have tried several Jnats with Ginsan with great success and highly recommend them if you are interested in going down this particular rabbit hole. As far as which stone to choose, that would depend on what level of refinement you like and what your skill level is with sharpening.
 
My naturals might be a bit slow on my skh4 cleaver, but it is thin enough that they still can do decent touchups.
 
dwalker said:
In my opinion, Jnats are effective on any steel. However, if you are referring to softer western stainless steels, I feel like they are a waste. I have tried several Jnats with Ginsan with great success and highly recommend them if you are interested in going down this particular rabbit hole. As far as which stone to choose, that would depend on what level of refinement you like and what your skill level is with sharpening.
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SO keep hearing this and i need some clarification. Why would a softer western steel be less beneficial on Jnats. I'm assuming its wrong but in my brain its like "softer steel=easier to sharpen."
 
ABranson said:
SO keep hearing this and i need some clarification. Why would a softer western steel be less beneficial on Jnats. I'm assuming its wrong but in my brain its like "softer steel=easier to sharpen."
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for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.
 
I don't know personally, but the intuitive guess is that less abrasion for a given surface fineness would yield more plastic deformation.
 
valgard said:
for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.
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Well put. Easier to abrade does not equal easier to sharpen. They are 2 different endeavors.
 
dwalker said:
Well put. Easier to abrade does not equal easier to sharpen. They are 2 different endeavors.
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But here is where I'm kind of lost. My friend has a stainless knife. Crazy hardness like 64. thts why the rubber/graphite analogy doesnt make sense to me. Would a hard stainless be worth a jnat stone? like my boss has a custom knife. stainless. 64 hardness. and its kind of a western/eastern mix
 
valgard said:
for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.
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With this analogy, what I play out is that I could bring that graphite to a point on the paper should i really work my angles. The rubberband would be futile. and nothing would even happen to the rubber band. I guess changing the rubberband out for something like an eraser, lots of material would come off, but it would end up really just smooth, not sharp. am I going in the right direction here?
 
ABranson said:
But here is where I'm kind of lost. My friend has a stainless knife. Crazy hardness like 64. thts why the rubber/graphite analogy doesnt make sense to me. Would a hard stainless be worth a jnat stone? like my boss has a custom knife. stainless. 64 hardness. and its kind of a western/eastern mix
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I would venture a guess and say yes, a jnat would be something i would try on it. I do not have a lot of experience with any stainless other than Ginsan, but my stones work very well with it. What is the steel? If it is a PM steel, there have been threads on the subject of their use with Jnats, but my google fu is weak.
 
dwalker said:
I would venture a guess and say yes, a jnat would be something i would try on it. I do not have a lot of experience with any stainless other than Ginsan, but my stones work very well with it. What is the steel? If it is a PM steel, there have been threads on the subject of their use with Jnats, but my google fu is weak.
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What about arkansas stones? would these be better for softer western steels than jnats?
 
ABranson said:
What about arkansas stones? would these be better for softer western steels than jnats?
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There is nothing wrong with Arkansas stones and they work fine. My favorite type of stones to use are Japanese water stones weather they are synthetic or natural. When I said I believe a natural finisher is a waste on softer steels like you would find in a commercially made German knife, it is because I don't think they benefit from that level of refinement. I have some German knives and enjoy sharpening them on water stones, I just stop at around 1k on a synthetic and sharpen at more obtuse angle than a jknife. I like where that leaves the edge. The natural finishers I use are typically around 6k plus. A harder steel, sharpened at a much more acute angle (something that simply cannot be done with a softer stainless), can benefit from this level of refinement.
 
"easy to abrade" is more of a wear resistance than a hardness thing - if you tried to *hammer* 61HRC VG10 sharp, it would be easier to do so than with 64 HRC aogami super. Situation is reversed on a whetstone (unless the whetstone is too soft for AS).
 
I would like to say that these are just my opinions derived from my limited experience. I'm sure someone loves using a jnat finisher on their F. Dick - and there is nothing wrong with that. Go with what works for you.
 
dwalker said:
There is nothing wrong with Arkansas stones and they work fine. My favorite type of stones to use are Japanese water stones weather they are synthetic or natural. When I said I believe a natural finisher is a waste on softer steels like you would find in a commercially made German knife, it is because I don't think they benefit from that level of refinement. I have some German knives and enjoy sharpening them on water stones, I just stop at around 1k on a synthetic and sharpen at more obtuse angle than a jknife. I like where that leaves the edge. The natural finishers I use are typically around 6k plus. A harder steel, sharpened at a much more acute angle (something that simply cannot be done with a softer stainless), can benefit from this level of refinement.
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That clears it up some! So For a german stainless, or other stainless of the like, keep it low grit for the most part, simply because a 4k or 6k wont do much for it. So my next question is, If i wanted a Jnat stone, in attempts of using it on a softer german metal, are there Jnat stones that are either softer or lower grit. I know their grit specificity is a little different which is why I ask.
 
I don't have a ton of mid to low grits in jnats but a Binsui may work well. I really feel like others could guide you better in this area.
 
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