Do you guys like honyaki?

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Enso Forge

Enso Forge

KKF Supporting Craftsman
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I have a special place in my heart for honyaki knives or any blade that has a hamon ( the more ashi the better! ) If you have or had one feel free to share!
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I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
 
Matt Jacobs said:
I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
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Can still enjoy hamon with patina!!


 
Matt Jacobs said:
I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
Click to expand...
Japanese just over pricing something basic. Hahha nothing new. I have a Steelport up next. I can’t wait.
 
Matt Jacobs said:
I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
Click to expand...
Ask @MSicardCutlery about failure. There is a legend that says he quenches his blades in a bucket filled with his own tears 🪣
 
Matt Jacobs said:
There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it.
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By the looks of it I'd say they just partially submerge the blades when they're quenched, or "edge quench". Though, with the spines so soft at an apparent 30hrc, they could also be doing the HT with an induction coil and only heating the edge area of the blade.

No clay, no rough grinding (probably, since it's 52100), and only partial submersion or partial heating, and most of the finicky variables and odds of failure have gone out the window, plus the blades should be easier to straighten too. In all honesty I do this with some of my san-mai, and thicker forged blades.

I had about 15 failures before I made my first oil quenched honyaki, and probably 25-28 before I made an water quenched one. Even now, a failure rate (failure can mean failure to harden, or a break/crack, or irreparable warp, or just a crappy looking hamon) of 1/5-7 is still about the norm.

26c3 seems to be pretty tolerant of water quenching, and can probably be quenched as received. W2 is a whole other can of worms, that stuff is not easy to work with and demands some careful thermal cycling prior to, and somewhat ignoring the published recommendations.

Attached was a W2 honyaki nakiri.....3 cracks, and warps in 2 planes. And I used the exact HT protocol on it that works just fine with 26c3.
 

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Matt Jacobs said:
I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
Click to expand...
Add me to this minority, but their aesthetics don’t do much for me either.
 
Matt Jacobs said:
I'm probably in the minority but I'm not a huge fan. It looks great when polished and new but it's lost with patina. To be completely honest, I also don't understand the pricing. I have heard that it can be a very high failure rate for some Eastern makers, but with Western makers it looks like they're putting clay on the spine and doing a standard heat treat. I don't hear a whole lot about failure so the extra cost seems to come from polishing which again I think is lost as soon as you start using it. There's other companies like Steelport who I would consider a hanyaki based on a very low HRC at the spine and high at the edge, but they're doing that on every knife and not charging any extra so I just don't completely understand it. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one at a higher price. However, when I see one posted online and just finished, I absolutely marvel at their looks.
Click to expand...
Did you want Knife makers to post pics of their "Pile 'O Shame"???
 
The majority of Japanese knife makers aren’t that well trained and that’s a hill I’ll die on. Their apprenticeship involves watching the master. It doesn’t involve studying metallurgy or ideas about making a process work better. They stare at a fire and decide if it’s hot enough based on experience and colour. They use the same steel over and over because that’s all they know. They could heat using induction coils for better consistency. They could simply measure the temperature and use timers. They could explore better clay compositions. But do they? No.

That’s where Steelport with its small team and high tech methods come in. Sure it’s not some old fart who learned as a child from watching his father. But it’s people who understand metals and are willing to change things up for a better product.
 
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SharpestToolintheShed said:
Japanese knife makers aren’t that well trained and that’s a hill I’ll die on.
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There is beauty in making tools the old way. I personally really enjoy knives made by western makers employing traditional methods. Milan comes to mind. Charcoal forge for his stuff. There is still room for modern techniques and metallurgy but let’s not discount everything else that doesn’t fit in that category.
 
As someone who loves monosteel, the one thing I'm missing is a differentially hardened blade. I really appreciate the beauty that comes out of them once polished. I will say that I'm not a fan of what some makers do in using a template for the clay - I prefer a more "organic" looking hamon.
 
Bico Doce said:
There is beauty in making tools the old way. I personally really enjoy knives made by western makers employing traditional methods. Milan comes to mind. Charcoal forge for his stuff. There is still room for modern techniques and metallurgy but let’s not discount everything else that doesn’t fit in that category.
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Western makers using the old way do so because they understand the beauty rather than not know any other way.
 
Im curious to know if milan thinks he “understands” the beauty more than the Japanese makers…

In any case I love the effort and art that goes into these knifes. When I saw pics of both msicard mizu honyakis I saw a massive amount of hours poured into perfecting something and a craftsman charging wayyy less than he should because he’s chalking it up to learning.

I donno maybe its that feeling of getting something right for the first time i wanted to buy…
 
SharpestToolintheShed said:
Japanese knife makers aren’t that well trained and that’s a hill I’ll die on. Their apprenticeship involves watching the master. It doesn’t involve studying metallurgy or ideas about making a process work better. They stare at a fire and decide if it’s hot enough based on experience and colour. They use the same steel over and over because that’s all they know. They could heat using induction coils for better consistency. They could simply measure the temperature and use timers. They could explore better clay compositions. But do they? No.

That’s where Steelport with its small team and high tech methods come in. Sure it’s not some old fart who learned as a child from watching his father. But it’s people who understand metals and are willing to change things up for a better product.
Click to expand...
While it would be great to have all Japanese knife makers using even heats and precise methods for their knife making...most of them still know how to make a banging knife regardless.

I had my togashi blue 1 tested at 66hrc, pretty impressive if they are just measuring by color in a moonless night lol

Have said for awhile that I would love to see some more high end Western steels in the Japanese article, but a lot of them don't forge well
 
Bico Doce said:
There is beauty in making tools the old way. I personally really enjoy knives made by western makers employing traditional methods. Milan comes to mind. Charcoal forge for his stuff. There is still room for modern techniques and metallurgy but let’s not discount everything else that doesn’t fit in that category.
Click to expand...
Yeah it's fun to have both. I have super steel newhams and a markin, while having really rustic stuff like a nine, and the Japanese stuff.
 
SharpestToolintheShed said:
Japanese knife makers aren’t that well trained and that’s a hill I’ll die on. Their apprenticeship involves watching the master. It doesn’t involve studying metallurgy or ideas about making a process work better. They stare at a fire and decide if it’s hot enough based on experience and colour. They use the same steel over and over because that’s all they know. They could heat using induction coils for better consistency. They could simply measure the temperature and use timers. They could explore better clay compositions. But do they? No.

That’s where Steelport with its small team and high tech methods come in. Sure it’s not some old fart who learned as a child from watching his father. But it’s people who understand metals and are willing to change things up for a better product.
Click to expand...
Sounds rather like you have an incredibly limited and biased view of Japanese knife makers based mostly on stereotypes...
 
DoYoon Kim said:
Im curious to know if milan thinks he “understands” the beauty more than the Japanese makers…

In any case I love the effort and art that goes into these knifes. When I saw pics of both msicard mizu honyakis I saw a massive amount of hours poured into perfecting something and a craftsman charging wayyy less than he should because he’s chalking it up to learning.

I donno maybe its that feeling of getting something right for the first time i wanted to buy…
Click to expand...
I did not read all the discussion but here is my thought about why I like to use traditionnal techniques.
Well I am quite purist and ... maybe narrow minded about artisan work. Of course there is a lot of way to see the craft and to work on it. But my vision of the artisan is someone able to make highest quality with simple tools and simple materials, only through his knowledge, his experience, his repetition. Of course it is very limited way to see it but it drives my choices as an artisan. I like to be in control and to be fully involved in the making of an object and.. in a way I am ok that an object could be of a lesser "quality" or lesser "performance" because I prioritize the fact that it is made by hand by someone dedicated to his art. That's also why I don't use guiding system for grinding blades or sharpening for exemple.

I bought a electric oven in...august 2020, I did not have it for the 9 years before that. I struggle in my mind before buying it because for me it was delegating a part of my knowledge. I was delagating to more even heat and more acurate temperature control than me, but I was still delegating some of my knowhow. That's how I see it. For my work and my business it helped me so much ! I could be very consistent, be mind free and makes great heat treatments. I could test things changing less parameters so I learned a lot too, it is not all white or black. But it did not make me a better artisan at quenching steel by eyes. So then if you don't know how to quench by etes and the oven is broken you can't work, if the electricity is off, you can't work, if the blade is larger than the oven you can't work, etc... That are also big compromises as I can see.

Now I am starting honyaki let say more seriously than before and of course I have made first ones in the oven. But then I thought well, you do all your san mai in the oven and well it's great and works great. Maybe for honyaki as you don't do them that much, and you want them to be special you could go back to the forge and that's why I do that now. It might be not as precise and I will need to practice a lot to be able to nail a temperature and make perfect moves to get that great hamon but so I'll be fully involved and the object will be special for that. And for my way of seing things, if I do the heating by hand, with my eyes and I nail it : the object is better quality than one done in the oven. Maybe not technically, but artisanally yes.
So it is a question of compromise between those two for my work : sometimes I'll prefer to be more "technically acurate" and use the oven. Sometimes for some other object I'll use the forge and my eyes to do that important work. It is a risk, it might be less good. But it will be more artisanal and for that I can prioritize it.
It is also a way to see knives : personnally, even if I try my best to make high quality knives, I don't think we need steels with crazy elements in it that give amazing performances to enjoy cooking and make a beautiful meal. We don't need handles that are fire proof, wet proof, time proof either. Etc.. I think very well made tool, made by someone dedicated to understand the use, the quality that need that tool, that do it with taste and feeling, even if it is not the hardest steel, the more wear resistant, the more tough, the more indestructible, can be just what we need for our uses.
 
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