Eater: Why Restaurant Owners Are Increasingly Providing Knives to Their Kitchen Staff

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crockerculinary said:
Well, remember Ian, i was a chef before being a retailer, and that is where my bristling comes from.

I think the articles whole premise about this “issue” is misguided, and therefore everything that follows doesn’t compute.

I believe the “knife culture situation” that they are complaining about is actually inherently a good thing. Here’s why-

First, I’ve worked at a lot of restaurants, and they all have at least a handful of beaters available if someone doesn’t have their own, and if for some reason the restaurant didn’t, I, and most chefs (or one of the cooks) would always have something they would let you use. It was almost a ritual for me when I started a new position to hide all the beat up and burnt up white handled Dexters, and replace them with some inexpensive but 1000% better knives for community use.

And then, claiming that there was an expectation to buy 700 dollar knives to be able to start a job is just ridiculous. It’s definitely changed a bit over the past handful of years (a good thing in my view), but in my time, even the top tier chefs mostly had things like Misono ux-10s, or maybe a Mcusta or other sub 250 dollar knife, and cooks considered those high end and badass. If they even noticed. And if you were new, there was no “expectation” to buy something expensive and there are always lots of low cost starter options - Kiwi, Victorinox, etc. And i never saw anyone shamed for not having high end knives.

I think its good thing that cooks should be expected to have and be responsible for their own tools. In the past there hasn’t been much support for them to figure it all out, but certainly thats changing with more awareness and more resources, and cooks and chefs are finally starting to learn more about knives and their maintenance.

The best thing would be to simply be able to pay them well so that a $200 dollar knife purchase isn’t a struggle. But capitalism being what it is….

I think the better thing would be for chefs and knife folk to “act locally” and help create a positive knife culture in their restaurant, and i have seen a lot of desire for that. As an example when I was a chef I gifted a number of knives to cooks who worked hard but had ****** knives. I tried to teach my cooks where I could and encourage them, and gave them information and recommendations appropriate to their level.

Anyway, what this restaurant is doing is fine, but its the framing of the article, that quality knives are a classist thing and an injustice that needs to be addressed by giving everyone the same mediocrity, and that people would be more content workers like that, that I take exception to.

Sure its more equitable, but there is zero room for personality and appreciation or passion for the tools. And that I definitely do not like. I think if a company wanted to do a really good thing, they would give their employees who needed one small kit with the tools necessary for the job. And help educate them in maintenance. Or just a small equipment expense. Or just pay people better, but thats a whole different discussion. Or is it?

Caveat- their are certainly crappy and rude cooks and people out there who have probably made other people feel small cause they didn’t have fancy knives, and i don’t want to discount that. Snobby people are snobby, and that’s lame, so i think it’s important for us as “knife ambassadors” to remember to meet people where they are and be nice to folks who dont know any better. I have people coming in all the time that think $50 is expensive for a knife, because for them, it is. And i try to have something for them. Hell i have something if they only have $10. And if they dont have $10, i have something I’ll just give them. I see folks on the forums all the time talking past people and being snobby, and id love to see that change in the knife community.

TLDR what @Racheski said.
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I agree with everything you have said. I was a chef for 20+ years. In NZ we trained classical french cuisine in most chef schools/collages. You are expected to bring your own knife kit to school. Bringing your own kit is part of the schooling and industry in NZ.

If your a 'kitchen trained chef' you would have to use the beaters in the kitchen till you could afford a knife or were gifted a knife.

Knife culture is different in each kitchen, when you get to high end kitchens (I have worked high-end kitchens/super yatchs/private around the world) the knife culture naturally slides towards the high end kitchen cutlery. It's not a snobby thing as, in my opinion, the prep must be to a higher standard and low end knives don't cut the mustard. Prep made with a Vic/kiwi (nothing to do with New Zealand) can't touch something done with a thinner higher end knife.

Usually chefs have a basic knowledge of knife care and maintenance and it's up to the 'knife guy chef' or senior chefs to up-skill the junior chefs.

All of this is from a New Zealand training point of view but I found it applies to kitchens around the world.

I was the senior/head/exec chef who was also the knife guy. Now I sell Japanese kitchen cutlery, still trying to up-skill chefs and home cooks.
 
M1k3 said:
I'd eat there.
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same. sounds interesting:

1659249187983.png


i like the simplicity of the menu, though the "homosalad" is pretty goofy. i love the tip-less restaurant paradigm in general.

weird that they don't seem to have any reviews on google maps. what's up with that?

one thing though. jmho...

Justice and Lindsley always knew that when they opened their first restaurant, it would have some queer sensibilities, but until the pandemic, Justice says, “we didn’t imagine that it was going to lead with queerness, until we decided to center ourselves in our work. And then it was a no-brainer: This is going to be queer first, restaurant second. It has to be.”
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if i had a restaurant, i personally wouldn't say that it'd "be a restaurant second". but i get that it's about more than just food to them. and if the food's good, then whatever.
 
tcmx3 said:
which bit, the part where she literally opened a restaurant and started giving her staff free knives?

that's not signalling. that's literally the opposite of signalling. do you even know what the words virtue signaling even mean?

this term "virtue singaling" has to be the result of some serious brain worms because no one who says it appears to actually understand what it means or the history of signaling theory. take it from a person whose field coined this concept/term, people sound dumb when they use it.

wanna do keywords? do I get to call your post a dog whistle?
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It's not hard to understand what virtue signalling is.

From Google/Oxford Languages:

  1. the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.
    "it's noticeable how often virtue signaling consists of saying you hate things"

Curiously, the owner's own words consists of saying how the owner despises the expectation that line cooks ought to own/purchase their own kitchen tools.
 
As much as I love arguing over definitions, all this mostly seems to be an excuse to replace discussion with insults. On the one hand, we usually use the phrase virtue signaling when the person is not also taking concrete actions in support of whatever virtues they’re signaling. She’s putting her money where her mouth is. On the other hand, we sometimes use the phrase virtue signaling when someone is taking some sort of meaningless (but advertised) action in support of some cause. If you are one of the people who thinks her stance on knives etc… is meaningless (I don’t) you could consider this virtue signaling.
 
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Yes yes this all very cute. I have no problem with virtue signaling in itself and I don’t understand why others consider it to be an insult. It just is what it is, this chef publicizing moral high ground or opposition to some norm. It’s great for business to, as it activates a shared morality with the business and customers.
 
I hate arguing over definitions, but I used to do it professionally. A couple of my collogues literally wrote the book on moral grandstanding. Sometimes virtue signaling is morally neutral, or even praiseworthy. But in common use it's used as a pejorative to attack people who attempt to enhance their status by engaging in empty actions or speech. As in "Self-aggrandizing ******** virtue signaling." That's clearly the sort of usage that the first person in this thread had in mind. But part from the knife thing, this restaurant has adopted a lot of nonstandard policies in an attempt to create a more equitable, humane, and inclusive work environment. It's not virtue signaling in the pejorative sense. If one isn't aware of multiple senses/usages of the term, one doesn't really understand it. And simply googling a definition isn't really going to give you an insight into the theory. That's all I was trying to say.

I don't know whether or not knife ownership creates the sorts of problems that this policy is designed to solve. I also find it difficult to believe that a restaurant that serves exclusively higher end tasting menus is going to have problems attracting competent cooks who also own their own knives -- especially if they're doing the tip-pooling and wage sharing or whatever scheme they've got going on over there. But the practice makes sense in light of their broader goal of having less division and more inclusiveness in their restaurant.
 
The word Queer itself was used as pejorative for many decades but no longer remains one. Language and intent can be quite fluid overtime.
Also appeal to authority fallacy. Also there is evidently no debate over the definition.
My contention is that an defined act that is considered a pejorative by others is still that defined act. Anything else is just deception.
 
One could argue half this forum is people virtue signalling according to their own knife fetish standards. :p Lars gets the virtue signalling cake for his contributions in the what's cooking thread. How dare he cook such good looking food on an almost daily basis in a home setting and show it off? ;)
 
I can count on zero hands the number of times I've seen a non-academic use "virtue signal" as anything other than a pejorative term. The common sense of the term is inherently moralized and is intended to identify costless moral speech or acts that are intended to raise one's moral status. But virtue signaling does not have to be intentional; actions and speech can signal virtue even if they were not intended to. But ordinary people virtually never talk about unintentional signaling, which is why the definition above (from Google) more narrowly defines virtue signaling as essentially intentional. That definition is incomplete, which is obvious to anyone who knows anything about signaling theory (which you can't quite do just by Googling definitions). Pointing that out is not gatekeeping or appealing to authority.

Back to knives...
 
“I can count on zero hands the number of times I've seen a non-academic use”
“ we usually use the phrase”
“we sometimes use the phrase virtue signaling”
All anecdotal evidence. Which is fine but folks are hinging their argument on what is perceived rather than what is.

Mentioning a professional background shouldn’t be pertinent. Either you make a case or you don’t.
 
When you're talking about the meaning of words in context as used by a linguistic community, mentioning the specific community is pertinent. Non-academics use "virtue signaling" almost exclusively an accusation or criticism. And that's how it was used in this thread, so...
 
Usually there is more to a theory than a single definition, be it from Google or elsewhere.
If the definition from Google is narrowly defined, it doesn't change the fact that the case in question is supposed to be about intentional signaling.
Also, the intent to demonstrate moral correctness could be done subconsciously as it frequently happens when one is raised in an environment in which that behaviour is repeated. So, Google's definition is not far-off the point as it doesn't talk about conscious intention, but only intention.

I have never seen a perfect definition of consciousness, so the flaw in Google's definition, if we choose to accept that all intent is conscious, is not only Google's as we don't know exactly what is consciousness.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00675/full
Pointing out people don't know what they are talking about when they correctly conveyed their thoughts sounds condescending to me.
If one doesn't see an attempt by the owner to self-promote, others may have a different opinion. It's not a fact that the owner is not virtue signaling in the pejorative sense, that's what is being discussed here.

Anyway, i feel we could agree to have different opinions if the owner of the restaurant is virtue signaling or not in the pejorative sense, but i don't get why if someone says it's virtue signaling in the pejorative sense, then that person must be mistaken.
 
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Wow that's a lot of fancy words to defend a person who clearly meant it in the "I wish these queer people would quit being so queer in front of me" way.
 
Interesting conversation--and why this is a great forum. I don’t work at a restaurant any more, but it reminds me of it, and how restaurant work attracts such a diverse workforce. Caring folks, dumbos, super smart people (and smart-mouths), tough guy/gals/whatever-binary types, criminals, or the criminally inclined, artists, addicts, right wingers, communists, immigrants, religious fanatics, a**holes. The list goes on. Not always, but usually, most came from pretty modest backgrounds. Restaurants then, and today still provide a way for lower class, working people to get ahead and make half-decent money, at least as long as their bodies and minds can endure it. It was sometimes befuddling to get to know someone off work hours, and discover they had these other lives as philosophy students, or woodworkers, or gun nuts, or whatever. Sometimes this comes up on non-knife topics. This one started with a knife topic, but then, perhaps sadly to the original poster(?) has continued onto something deeper, and more revealing of the people here. Fascinating. At least to me.

As far as the original article, I’m kind of with M1k3. The owner sees a problem and is trying something new. It might not be the way you would approach it, if you even see it as a problem, but so what? We all tend to be either protective of the way we were trained—if you had a great experience, and critical if you didn’t. But I’d be ignorant to believe everyone’s experience was the same as mine, regardless. I can see both sides: I hated using communal knives, but coming up with the money for my own WAS a problem. This is a way to address it. Not a perfect way, but a way. I’d love to hear from white collar people if their employers took away their work computers or company cars. Most talk these days of “virtue signaling” or “wokeness” etc. seems like an effort to broadcast people’s politics, but usually doesn’t lead to useful solutions.

I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?
 
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I have begged several times my employer to let me use my personal computer for working tasks as my work computer is too slow and, consequently, time is lost. That's the result of being forced to use less efficient tools for the job: one takes more time to finish it and the task becomes less fulfilling to the worker. For security reasons, i was denied and i understand their point-of-view.

I totally agree that there are several different views and the owner, in my opinion, has the right to define the rules (as long as it's not against the law) at a private-owned restaurant. However, the criticism is also valid. Why shut down the critics? Like you said, "i'd be ignorant to believe everyone's experience was the same as mine".
 
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Noodle said:
Interesting conversation--and why this is a great forum. I don’t work at a restaurant any more, but it reminds me of it, and how restaurant work attracts such a diverse workforce. Caring folks, dumbos, super smart people (and smart-mouths), tough guy/gals/whatever-binary types, criminals, or the criminally inclined, artists, addicts, right wingers, communists, immigrants, religious fanatics, a**holes. The list goes on. Not always, but usually, most came from pretty modest backgrounds. Restaurants then, and today still provide a way for lower class, working people to get ahead and make half-decent money, at least as long as their bodies and minds can endure it. It was sometimes befuddling to get to know someone off work hours, and discover they had these other lives as philosophy students, or woodworkers, or gun nuts, or whatever. Sometimes this comes up on non-knife topics. This one started with a knife topic, but then, perhaps sadly to the original poster(?) has continued onto something deeper, and more revealing of the people here. Fascinating. At least to me.

As far as the original article, I’m kind of with M1k3. The owner sees a problem and is trying something new. It might not be the way you would approach it, if you even see it as a problem, but so what? We all tend to be either protective of the way we were trained—if you had a great experience, and critical if you didn’t. But I’d be ignorant to believe everyone’s experience was the same as mine, regardless. I can see both sides: I hated using communal knives, but coming up with the money for my own WAS a problem. This is a way to address it. Not a perfect way, but a way. I’d love to hear from white collar people if their employers took away their work computers or company cars. Most talk these days of “virtue signaling” or “wokeness” etc. seems like an effort to broadcast people’s politics, but usually doesn’t lead to useful solutions.

I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?
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I think your last part hits the nail on the head. There's a certain hipocrisy in claiming to champion equality (whether we want to describe this as virtue signalling or not) while at the same having a menu priced high enough to essentially be an upper class luxury.
 
Marcelo Amaral said:
I have begged several times my employer to let me use my personal computer for working tasks as my work computer is too slow and, consequently, time is lost. That's the result of being forced to use less efficient tools for the job: one takes more time finish it and the task becomes less fulfilling to the worker. For security reasons, i was denied and i understand their point-of-view.

I totally agree that there are several different views and the owner, in my opinion, has the right to define the rules (as long as it's not against the law) at a private-owned restaurant. However, the criticism is also valid. Why shut down the critics? Like you said, "i'd be ignorant to believe everyone's experience was the same as mine".
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Don't mistake me. I'm not an advocate of shutting down the critics at all. Like I said, I think the diversity of this forum is one of it's strengths. I happen to have my opinion, but am happy to hear others express theirs too.
 
Noodle said:
Don't mistake me. I'm not an advocate of shutting down the critics at all. Like I said, I think the diversity of this forum is one of it's strengths. I happen to have my opinion, but am happy to hear others express theirs too.
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That's perfectly fine with me. It's nice to find common ground.
 
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Noodle said:
I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?
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Sorry but this is super infuriating to read and one of the reasons why cooks, chefs make so little money.
This is for a full menu. not just one meal. Also tips are already calculated into the price.
You already said it they have to pay for labor, rent. products...
So your solution is to lower the prices so all involved make even less money??!
Also meals like this are more for special occasions and one offs, not for everyday.
You don't seem to see how much labor and money goes into this.
People are perfectly okay buying the newst iPhone every year or laptop and such, also owning a 60k+$ car but aren't willing to pay for good food and the people who produce it.
I know people who have so much money and spend it for clothes, cremes and a personal trainer but still buy stuff from the discounter, don't look for good products or cook for themselves. Since it's not a status symbol.
As long as people aren't willing to pay for good produce and food so long cooks will live miserable lives. Be it working conditions or pay.
It's of course a different topic if the owner drives a Porsche and barely does anything while his employees barely get by.
Most star chefs make money via advertising and selling cook books and products, not by owning a restaurant.
But overall your sense of view is one of the reasons cooks don't get paid properly.
 
KKF is a forum where many members are willing to pay a thousand dollars for a janky Denka. $150 for dinner in NYC shouldn't raise any eyebrows here. That isn't very much money in the context of a fine dining tasting menu, especially in NYC. And that's the price for dinner, not lunch (not that it really matters). As noted above, the gratuity is already included. I obviously don't know what the wages at HAGS really are, but I'm reasonably sure that the BOH staff is compensated quite competitively given the tipless gratuity system.
It's worth remembering that one day a week, the restaurant does a "pay what you want night" that's first come, first served. -- no reservations. That's a very egalitarian move for a fine dining restaurant, and I'm sure they'd make more money if they didn't do that. But they take the hit to foster a sense of community and inclusion with the dining public, just as they buy knives for their BOH staff to foster a sense of community and inclusion for their employees. They're putting their money where their mouth is. They've got free condoms and pads and fentanyl test strips in the bathroom along with the free breath mints. Their style and "queerness first" approach might not please everyone, but they've put a lot of thought into how their operation runs in order to make it actually promote values that are often overlooked in the industry. It's more than just empty verbiage.
If we're going to talk about absurd NYC fine dining virtue signaling nonsense, I think EMP's $365 vegan tasting menu deserves a nod. "Eating meat and fish isn't sustainable and we must protect the climate, so here's a bunch of plants flown in from all over the world that we have our team of 100 cooks torture and transform using boatloads of time, energy, money, and manpower. Bon appetit!" And they don't even offer free condoms.
 
JayS20 said:
Sorry but this is super infuriating to read and one of the reasons why cooks, chefs make so little money.
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I’m sorry my perspective has upset anyone, but I stand by it. This isn’t, by the way, a criticism of this restaurant or their employees. I’m sure HAGS is a terrific place, with terrific food. I appreciate they are trying a different approach to fine dining, and that they care about their workforce. I’m also certain their prices are in line with what other mid-high end restaurants are charging in NYC. I doubt the owner is coming to work in a Porsche. I understand how restaurants work, and I get that most margins are extremely thin. I don’t think the answer is to simply charge less, and that would solve the problem. This isn’t about HAGS, or any other restaurant like it overcharging customers. I don’t think that is happening, so don’t mistake me. But I also don’t think saying $155 (before any drinks, BTW) is a LOT of money for many people, is the reason why cooks and chefs make so little.

Maybe not for you, but for many of us—including my family, most of whom have spent years, if not careers in food service (I’ve cooked, catered, tended bar. My wife was a breakfast waitress for years and years), eating out has become a luxury activity. For those of us who make working class livings—like most restaurant people—it is increasingly difficult to justify enjoying the product of your hard work, and that IS a problem.

My city is awash in tech money, and it has become “normalized” to throw absurd amounts of money down for average meals. My son, who still works in food service, can’t. Well, he can’t if he wants to pay his rent. And he’s renting because he can’t afford to buy a house. He’ll never be able to afford a house in this city. House prices are insane, with bidding wars for tiny cottages. And it isn’t restaurant workers who are doing that bidding. Low wage earners are your brothers and sisters, not your enemy.

It isn’t a matter of whether people like me are “willing to pay for good produce and food” at your restaurant. We increasingly, simply can’t. I don’t hold restaurants responsible for this. They are only capitalizing on what the market will bear, I get that. But this market caters to the wealthy, and dining is one of the services that is affected. It’s a symptom of the wealth gap in this country, which has grown exponentially these last few decades, and which has corroded much of our American life, in my opinion. But please don’t fall into the trap of blaming the poor for the low salary you earn. That’s not on us.
 
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Hey @Noodle ,
I totally understand your perspective and agree with quite a lot. Just didn't think lowering prices in a restaurant is the solution. Especially when it comes to fine dining it's supposed to be a special occasion.
Germans really don't like to spend money on quality food and restaurants, quite the same goes for Americans although there the wealth gap is even worse. People rather spend money on propagated status symbols.
The French for example spend over 30% more of their income on food products compared to Germans.
Noone who works fulltime should have to worry about paying rent, getting by.
Why does someone who works 70hours per week earn way less than someone working 40???
Why is noone caring about ordinary people not being able to pay rent in the city they work in. Why isn't the city, community stopping this?
There is a city in Germany where a lot of job possibilites are but a lot of people can't afford to live in the city and even the suburbs are quite expensive.
There won't be any change though, as long as people don't stand up and that will never happen as long as they are doing fine comparably.
The wealthy accumulated even more the last 2 years while a lot of people fell into financial problems. This will only get worse.
 
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Fine dining= expensive.

Period.

Now there's different levels of expensive, but, so what? That's like complaining the average middle class person can't afford a Rolls Royce or Bugatti Veyron. Or mid-level Mercedes.

I've worked mostly Fine Dining/Upscale. I don't complain I can't afford to sit and dine with Mr. and Mrs. Maserati, hob nob with Joe Porsche Collector and his friend Bob "Big Collection" Ferrari.


There's different social issues I would complain about. But has nothing to do with this restaurant doing the best thing they can actually accomplish.
 
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