Edge Retention Vs Ease of Sharpening

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I am a a pro and unlike many people I basically see sharpening as a necessary function rather than really enjoying it. I have very little free time so edge retention is important to me. I find sharpening interesting because you always find ways to refine and hone your technique, but I wouldn't say I do it for fun or when I don't really have to.
 
Marko, do you ask because you want to figure out perfect compromise? Why wouldnt you do one serie for one group, and one for the other?

I myself like sharpening much, I do it as hobby and for money sometimes, i spent long long time over stones instead with my wife :D and I dont mind it.
So if I would posses a knife that would be a challenge for me in sharpening, but would give back great amount of service, then I would be the happiest.
But if I would have to do karate-gimmicks to keep it sharp and spend time over nothing, it would annoy my arse... And it would feel like Zwilling... or Sabatier...I just look at the rack and i choose something else to cut with, the whole pleasure of prep is gone with those knives somewhat, just because you expect something more out of the amount of work you put into it.
So the balance between amount of input and output is the key?
 
Personally, I would think that a knife that worked for a pro kitchen would be fine for me. Retention is great for when you just want to get on with the cooking, and if you like to sharpen for the sake of sharpening there is no one who is standing behind you telling you to knock it off! Playing with subtle changes in the edge is always allowed and lets a person get out the stones whenever the mood strikes.
 
this

tk59 said:
...The best thing about owning a high end knife is the first couple of hours of cutting straight off the stones. If I can get a few more hours off of a sharpening, that would be great. So far, it doesn't really seem to matter. I sharpen, I get an awesome couple of hours (depending on what I'm cutting) and then cutting is merely very nice, not awesome. I really just want the awesome. Basically, give me more edge retention but I don't want to sacrifice on sharpness...
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and this

...I basically see sharpening as a necessary function {snip}. I have very little free time so edge retention is important to me. I find sharpening interesting because you always find ways to refine and hone your technique...
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I'm a home cook and private chef (and primarily a self-employed over-worked, under-paid architect :tooth:). I want that awesome edge every time. Nothing is more annoying than grabbing a knife to prep dinner and the edge not being there. Or getting half way through a prep of a big dinner gig and feel the need to strop or hit the stick to get some semblance of awesome back.

I like how sharp and easy to get sharp white #2 is, but I like the retention of SG2 and AS.
 
In terms of efficiency, clearly edge retention is preferable. One shouldn't only consider how many strokes you need to sharpen a knife, but also take into account the time needed for the preparation of one sharpening session on stones, including cleaning up etc. In my experience I need about 50% more strokes to sharpen ZDP-189 as compared to VG10, and VG10 needs about 50% more than steel in the HRC 57 category. The extra time needed for those few additional strokes is very little as compared to the total time needed for one sharpening session. Therefore if time matters, edge retention is the way to go.

I actually do like sharpening and it always a great feeling to produce that super sharp edge. But I don't have the time to do that too often. Thus I want edge retention.
 
I think that if I were a professional cook I'd look for a knife that offered the best edge retention possible BUT it would also need to be easily sharpenable - both in abrasion rate and deburring.

For the home cook I see this more of a matter of personal taste with regards to do you like to sharpen often or not. Needs will be based more on this preference than the actual need to maintain an edge forever.
 
As a home cook I don't think it makes much difference for me, if anything I kind of lean towards ease of sharpening, I have definitely noticed that certain knives can be a PITA, for example trying to flatten a yanagi with high RC hagane, or certain stainless which are more abrasion resistant (S30V). Since I'm at home it's not the same as being out in the field with a hunting knife and not wanting to carry sharpening gear.

A lot of people love their Sabatiers and the RC on those is advertised as 54-56..... some old Sabs probably outlived their previous owners by quite a bit, on the other hand some of the pro cooks here can use up/wear out even a harder steel blade pretty quickly.
 
So Dave, What knife -or- knives do you think offer(s) the best edge retention and is/are easily sharpenable? It is always nice to be able to as a guru !!! You have sharpened some of my knives ~ & when I got them back, they were screeeeming sharp like we wish all knives were all the time! :)

Cheers,

Andrew
 
Out of the knives that you have used, which is easily sharpened and has great edge retention?

Cheers,

Andrew
 
AMP01 said:
Out of the knives that you have used, which is easily sharpened and has great edge retention?

Cheers,

Andrew
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I think what he's saying is that he doesn't get the opportunity to put a knife through the paces at a job and wear it down, he is in the business of getting them optimally sharp and durable, and adjusting to how the customer wants it done/likes it/responds to it. Since he's just going by however other people like it, it's actually second-hand knowledge.


I will venture to say that while there are great stainless steels out there for SURE, the magic combo of edge retention/sharpenability is more often found in carbon steels.
 
But Dave, out of this small window, what do you see? :laugh:
 
johndoughy,

Out of the knives you have used, any insite to this magical combo of easy to sharpen and great edge retention?
 
It's a trade-off. The factors that make a knife keep it's edge are the same as those that help it resist abrasion(sharpening). The makeup of a steel is a part of this, but the heat treat is a bigger part.

The trouble with stainless steel is managing the Chromium Carbides, which are stupid.

Sorry, it's very late for me and I've had many a long day this week, I'll defer to someone else with an alert mind and knowledge of metallurgy. Just know that a knife that gets crazy sharp, stays sharp forever, and needs only a quick brisk sharpening does not exist.
 
Awe c'mon,

I am just looking for the Holy GraiL of knives !!! :thumbsup2:
 
AMP01 said:
Awe c'mon,

I am just looking for the Holy GraiL of knives !!! :thumbsup2:
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Good news then! Find a guy who makes top-notch kitchen knives, heat treats his own stuff, is familiar with a steel you like. Communicate copiously, pay him well, and you will end up with a knife that will not leave you wanting.
 
I've been really pleased (as a home user) with S35VN. So impressed, that I've sent it out to a friend here who knows a thing or two about knives to give the steel a try, to either back up my claims, or tell me I'm nuts! Haha
It should be interesting to see what more people think of it, as it gets into more people's hands.
Was it a absolute breeze to sharpen? No, but it wasn't anywhere close to hard to sharpen, either. The retention should be way up there, but I won't say for sure until more of us try the steel, with a proper HT.
 
I'd love to try a blade in s35vn at work, but don't have the scratch to buy one just to try.
 
i have... works perfectly well... fast even

I have had no problems with this steel so far except that i dont like the edge feel
 
What is it that you don't like, Jon? I'm not challenging, just curious, that's all.
I've now used and sharpened two different S35VN blades and they're quite different animals.
 
Does abrasion resistance necessarily correlate with difficulty to remove a wire edge/burr? It seems that some blades aren't particularly wear resistant but hold onto a burr (VG10) and others are more wear resistant but sharpening relatively easily (zdp-189). In either case, it really doesn't seem to take very long to develop a burr.

Just a few minutes ago, I sharpened three knives in identical fashion (as much as humanly possible): two from different makers in 52100 and a DT-mystery steel knife (purported to be even more wear resistant than 52100). I used a Beston 500 to develop a burr, Gesshin 1k (about 10 strokes per side), Gesshin 5k (about 20 strokes per side) and Naniwa SS 8k (about 20 strokes per side) plus 0.25 micron diamond on Dave's strop (~5 strokes per side). The one of the 52100 knives and the mystery steel knife got absolutely screaming sharp, but the third in 52100 took a bit more work on an 8k stone and strop to really get rid of the wire edge and still didn't seem quite as sharp.
 
so, i've tried a small pocket knife and the haslinger in s35vn... different, but the same feeling i didnt like of the edge... sharpening felt very sandy and the edge never got quite the sharpeness i was looking for... toothiness was nice, but the type of thoothiness it had wasnt what i was hoping for... if i had to discribe the feeling of the steel, the words flatt and dull(as in senses) come to mind.

As an example of a toothy steel i like, think D2.
 
tk59 said:
Does abrasion resistance necessarily correlate with difficulty to remove a wire edge/burr? It seems that some blades aren't particularly wear resistant but hold onto a burr (VG10) and others are more wear resistant but sharpening relatively easily (zdp-189). In either case, it really doesn't seem to take very long to develop a burr.

Just a few minutes ago, I sharpened three knives in identical fashion (as much as humanly possible): two from different makers in 52100 and a DT-mystery steel knife (purported to be even more wear resistant than 52100). I used a Beston 500 to develop a burr, Gesshin 1k (about 10 strokes per side), Gesshin 5k (about 20 strokes per side) and Naniwa SS 8k (about 20 strokes per side) plus 0.25 micron diamond on Dave's strop (~5 strokes per side). The one of the 52100 knives and the mystery steel knife got absolutely screaming sharp, but the third in 52100 took a bit more work on an 8k stone and strop to really get rid of the wire edge and still didn't seem quite as sharp.
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I know I answered this question recently but cannot find where I did. I wonder how many of my posts disappear?

Anyway, both low hardness and high retained austenite make removing a burr more difficult. That's why it's sometimes a fallacy that low hardness knives are easy to sharpen.

Edit: Nevermind I found it. Maybe more people would read what I say if I didn't say things so succinctly, or at least if I made every sentence a new paragraph. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...f-sharpness&p=41151&highlight=cowry#post41151
 
Larrin, I got told to put more paragraphs in my posts a long time ago.
I
Listened.
It seems
To work.
:D
 
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