European knives ?

[Crothcipt]

My first "good" knife was also a Wusthof (Ikon--the one without the full bolster). It wasn't a bad knife, but once I bought a Hiromoto AS I quickly realized that the Wusthof, though it had better fit and finish, was inferior in sharpness and geometry.

The difference was amazing, but over the years, many knives later and much money spent my tastes started to become more refined and once I handled a pristine 1890s hand forged French Sabatier (rat tang) I began to see the problem with a lot of Japanese western style knives--all of a sudden my Hiro felt clunky...

Aspects many Japanese gyuto makers neglect for me are distal taper*, balance**, and toughness***.

*the only Japanese maker I have come across that has mastered this aspect is Shigefusa. This also relates to balance...

**though scoffed at on forums and overemphasized my commerical practices, I've found balance in hand being an important aspect of any knife. This became extremeley apparent when I handled two knives and the heavier [custom] blade felt lighter and handled nicer than the blade heavy lighter knife. When I weighed them on a scale I was in disbelief.

***This is where choice of steel and optimal heat treat come in.

Some times I think that balance can be achieved forward on the blade, or even in the handle. It pretty much depends on the grip that is used. Most of the time when I find that I am not liking using a pinch grip I switch to a hammer grip, or even moving down on the end of the handle.

 

[Blobby]

Hi,

It seems that almost all discussions in the forum are about Japanese knives.

are European knives so inferior to Japanese knives, or is it just a matter of taste of most people here?

I am personally fascinated by Japanese knives and other cutting tools, but I use European knives for daily cutting.

Am I missing out on something?

thanks,

Joel

Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed. I love looking at high end gear but that's just about all there is here. It's like joining a car forum and all they talk about (and sorry but there has to be a serious element of bragging too) is top of the range Maseratis. A bit boring really.

 

[labor of love]

Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed. I love looking at high end gear but that's just about all there is here. It's like joining a car forum and all they talk about (and sorry but there has to be a serious element of bragging too) is top of the range Maseratis. A bit boring really.

seriously? stick around for longer than a few days and maybe even participate before you write this forum off. or not.

 

[maxim]

hmm i will also say you are quite off on this, i started buying Japanese knives because German was to expensive for me. There is much big choose in Japanese knives then European

Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed. I love looking at high end gear but that's just about all there is here. It's like joining a car forum and all they talk about (and sorry but there has to be a serious element of bragging too) is top of the range Maseratis. A bit boring really.

 

[joels747]

Well not boring at all for me.

Judging by the number and contents of the replies, it seems to be a subject that many people here have thought about and experimented with.

Most have come to the (inevitable maybe) conclusion that European style knives are good for regular tough cutting chores, while J knives are more like fine tuned instruments.

As I said before I am fascinated by the making and performance of Japanese knives, swords and other metal (and other) artifacts, so I wholeheartedly agree with the general atmosphere here.

But I guess its good to shake things a bit from time to time and think again of what we think we already know so well :laugh:

I am being enlightened by what you people write. - Thanks

Joel

 

[sachem allison]

Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed. I love looking at high end gear but that's just about all there is here. It's like joining a car forum and all they talk about (and sorry but there has to be a serious element of bragging too) is top of the range Maseratis. A bit boring really.

yOU HAVEN'T DUG DEEP ENOUGH. almost all of my posts are on European knives and we have a thriving vintage chef thread called ODC (old dirty carbon) You will find that there is quite alot of discussion about vintage and antique European knives here and many of the chefs on this forum use Sabatiers and old Henckels on a daily basis for their line work. Dave does an awesome job refurbishing Sabatiers, Knifeknerd does his giveaways and Lefty sells alot of Vintage European knives in his store. Yes, we have a lot of Japanese Knife enthusiasts but, many of the members here are collectors. I know you think we always talk about high performance , high end knives but, that simply isn't true. More often then not we are talking about affordable sub $300 knives and even lower then that for the novice beginner. If you look in our buy/sell/ trade section most knives run below $300 dollars also. That is comparable if not cheaper then many high end European knives. If you feel that we are boring then you really aren't reading the threads or paying attention to what is being said, here. You just joined and your very first post is how disappointed you are? Really? You are not going to experience much if you only give it a day.

Welcome, by the way. I really hope you give the forum a chance.

 

[mhlee]

Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed. I love looking at high end gear but that's just about all there is here. It's like joining a car forum and all they talk about (and sorry but there has to be a serious element of bragging too) is top of the range Maseratis. A bit boring really.

Wusthof Classic 9 inch knife: $139.95 http://www.cutleryandmore.com/wusthof-classic/chefs-knife-p1603

Suisin Inox Western 9 1/2 inch knife: $143.75 http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...-western/suisin-inox-western-240mm-gyuto.html

Several well respected members here have openly recommended the Suisin. Not "high end gear" as far as price, but high end as far as quality is concerned.

Ask a few questions, e.g. type of knife you're looking for, size, price range, type of steel, Japanese vs. Western handle, without being dismissive. I think you'll be surprised by the number of positive responses you'll get.

 

[sachem allison]

don't forget Fujiwara and carbonext

 

[sachem allison]

don't forget Fujiwara and carbonext. come to think of it I only own 2 Japanese Knives and neither one of them are highend. A fifty year old deba and a Japanese cleaver. everything else is European or American made.

 

[labor of love]

...or anything made by cck. priced similar to forschners but a helluva better bargain.

 

[Cutty Sharp]

Carter is Canadian born

so that's why i keep hearing a canadian accent on his videos. clears that up for me.

Much more pleasant, isn't it! :razz:

 

[user 1925]

i know this may be a little off topic but does anyone else wish one of the sabatier brands made chef knife with a hitachi steel(or something similar) hardened to rockwell 61 or so?

The Hitachi steels (particularly white) are nothing special and I mean that in a good way. They are simple high-carbon steels. You can find equivalents in every country/continent. 1095 (or C90) is very close to Hitachi white.

The older Sabatiers have very fine grain structure and high(er) hardness. There are many custom French smiths who work with C50-C100 steels and make beautiful custom chef's knives for prices much lower than their North American equivalents (i'm not divulging, yet).

But I agree with you insofar that I wish there was a contemporary Sabatier production knife that used a higher grade steel although the simple carbon steel they use isn't bad by any stretch, and will stand up to the abuse of cutting through rib bones better than most.

 

[K-Fed]

The Hitachi steels (particularly white) are nothing special and I mean that in a good way. They are simple high-carbon steels. You can find equivalents in every country/continent. 1095 (or C90) is very close to Hitachi white.

The older Sabatiers have very fine grain structure and high(er) hardness. There are many custom French smiths who work with C50-C100 steels and make beautiful custom chef's knives for prices much lower than their North American equivalents (i'm not divulging, yet).

But I agree with you insofar that I wish there was a contemporary Sabatier production knife that used a higher grade steel although the simple carbon steel they use isn't bad by any stretch, and will stand up to the abuse of cutting through rib bones better than most.

+1 I love my vintage sabs. The steel is pretty great in my opinion. It gets nearly as keen as my ( japanese/ japanese( swedish ) carbon steel knives and is no more reactive than the white and blue steel knives I've used. Also I've been able to get away with simply stropping on the chocera 5k that I leave at work rather than steeling when an edge decides to become less than true and it works fantastically.

 

[Benuser]

+1 I love my vintage sabs. The steel is pretty great in my opinion. It gets nearly as keen as my ( japanese/ japanese( swedish ) carbon steel knives and is no more reactive than the white and blue steel knives I've used. Also I've been able to get away with simply stropping on the chocera 5k that I leave at work rather than steeling when an edge decides to become less than true and it works fantastically.

+1!!
It's quite unlikely the French will ever change the hardness; they have to serve a large domestic market used to frequent steeling.
If you're looking for harder steel, go Japanese. Their profile is almost identical to the French.

 

[user 1925]

+1!!
It's quite unlikely the French will ever change the hardness; they have to serve a large domestic market used to frequent steeling.
If you're looking for harder steel, go Japanese. Their profile is almost identical to the French.

Masamoto KS gyuto is the closest (in my experience) equivalent in terms of profile if you don't mind the -wa handle.

 

[Zwiefel]

In addition to all of the comments above about the less expensive knives that get discussed here, I'd encourage you to check out the Buy/Sell/Trade forum. Frequently you can get an expertly cared-for knife used at 40-60% of the new price...and they'll usually give it a professional edge before they ship it out. This makes it possible to get some REALLY good knives for $50 or so....which is wal-mart/target pricing for henckels/wusthoff level knives.

 

[joels747]

I am amazed how such a simple question brought up such a vast amount of knowledge and information.

But then I guess this is what this forum is about.

Thanks

Joel

 

[quantumcloud509]

Wusthof Classic 9 inch knife: $139.95 http://www.cutleryandmore.com/wusthof-classic/chefs-knife-p1603

Suisin Inox Western 9 1/2 inch knife: $143.75 http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...-western/suisin-inox-western-240mm-gyuto.html


Several well respected members here have openly recommended the Suisin. Not "high end gear" as far as price, but high end as far as quality is concerned.

Ask a few questions, e.g. type of knife you're looking for, size, price range, type of steel, Japanese vs. Western handle, without being dismissive. I think you'll be surprised by the number of positive responses you'll get.

If you pay attention to Anthony Bordains "Mind of a Chef", David Chang is a Suisin knut

...or anything made by cck. priced similar to forschners but a helluva better bargain.

I dont have one I want one, but I dont have one. I have many others, and CCK is very affordable. Maybe when I get my Amazon gift card for christmas