For non-knife nuts, why carbon?

[VoodooMajik]

I've started using Carbon steel blades in a Pro kitchen over the last few months. I keep stainless on hand for stuff that can react heavily and for the line when I don't always have time to wipe off the knife and can get dragged away from the line.

The blade develops a character from being used. It feels alot nicer when cutting and holds up a decent edge. people are starting to be sold on Carbons as well as Suji's at work.

 

[Birnando]

I prefer Carbon.

The reasons being the keenness they can reach, and with what ease they can do so.
Tradition being another and very important reason.
Looks does count too.
I am rather involved in the straight razor world as well,and I'm sure that has something to do with it too

 

[Mike Davis]

I love carbon. At home i have 2 270's (one carbon, one ss) a 240(ss) and a 210(carbon) aside from those two ss gyuto's, everything else i have is carbon. For the most part, my 240 rarely gets used, my 2 270's are about neck and neck. I think i take pretty good care of my stuff, so i guess i am a carbon guy right now

 

[Schtoo]

This is honestly one of the funniest ideas ever.

Maybe we're on to something? New sharpening stones made of ceramic?

No, nothing new at all.

I could cut/paste the email I have in my inbox, but it was sent to me and I'm reluctant to put any of that kind of correspondence up for the unwashed masses.

(Plus it's in Japanese!)

But...

You know when a stone is called 'ceramic'? In some cases, it actually is.

The email I have from a certain stone maker (Sigma Power) after asking whether their stones could be left in water stated the closest household comparison they could make with regard to the composition of their ceramic stones was, yes, a coffee cup.

(So, yeah, they're glorified coffee cups. Better that than a hunk of megabuck drywall, a squished flower pot or a smooshed out plastic bottle for my way of thinking.)

But it's also nice to know that short of giving them a trip off the 3rd floor balcony, your stones don't give a rat's back passage what you do to them.


Stu.

(Keeps a set of stones in the freezer. Because I can. :razz: )

 

[Keith Sinclair]

From a value perspective, carbon just wins out 100%. If you want a Stainless Steel knife that can get as sharp as carbon (like AEB-L, Konosuke HD. etc.), then you're going to have to fork over a lot of money. And once you experience how sharp carbon steels get, you're not ever going back. After using carbon, something like VG-10 is absolute crap to me; no different from the Mercers that kids use when coming out of culinary school.

I agree,I have tried to be open minded using some of the better stainless VG-10, AEB-L,Inox.I always go back to my carbons.All the maintainance issues mean nothing to me I have used only carbon in Banquet kitchens last 25 yrs.If in front of a cutting board an entire shift you want the best knife poss. to me that is thin japan carbon gyuto's & carbon yanagi.I have the Konosuki white steel 240 it is a fine tool.I have heard alot of good things about the HD,but at this point no more stainless blades for me,I end up giving them away to my relatives.:laugh:

 

[stevenStefano]

As others have said, price vs performance, carbon is usually a better deal. Look at the Sakai Yusuke knives, you'll find it tough to find a stainless knife of their performance at their price. Another one is simply you have a better choice of knives. Some makers just don't really do stainless, or not very well anyway. Personally I have sorta moved away from carbon. To be totally honest the edge retention of White #2 has left me pretty underwhelmed. My Konosuke HD holds an edge longer than any carbon knife I've ever used and my Rottman suji holds an edge for much longer than the Konosuke, and I know the Konosuke isn't technically stainless but for all that it matters to me it is.

 

[dav]

I' m a home cook and complete newbie when it comes to kitchen knives although I've enjoyed researching and reading up on different steels properties and finding out for myself how some of these actually feel in use and when sharpening etc

Obviously I have limited experience and have only experienced certain steels such as White steel, blue and blue super and the semi stainless steel in the Konosuke HD. and again my limited sharpening skills have probably made these steel more equal in that I'm probably not getting ultimate sharpness from each knife/steel to make a real comparison. Edge retention wise as a home cook I'm again probably not really testing my knives out as a professional would but I like the tradition which comes with some of the Japanese makers and steels that they use as well as their appearance/asthetics.

Also and this is purely personal I find appearance wise a stainless knife extremely boring, perferring steels that develop patina's, Kurouchi finishes and the more subtle damascus patterns. I again personally find some of the more elaborate damascus patterns abeit probably requiring a lot of skill in most cases superfluous to requirements and asthetically either "contrived" or gawdy/over done.

I also have no issue with the maintenance of carbon blades although can totally understand the practcal aspect of stainless in a professional setting.

 

[shankster]

I've switched to SS or Semi(Kono HD and Swedish),too lazy,don't care about patina and too busy at work to fuss over my knives.Still love carbon,just not at work.

 

[David Metzger]

I don't really understand why the chromium in some stainless steels allow such fine grain, such as 13c26 and AEB-L. I believe these are fine grain, somewhat similar to the carbon steels we use like o1, 52100, 1095, 1084, W1, W1, White and Blue. I think they are more difficult to harden to 62+ RC which many like for kitchen knives. Also appears that these fine grain stainless may need sharpening more often.

Then you have some more traditional stainless like 440C or 154 cm or VG10. Because of the larger carbides and less toughness of these types of steels - a thin edge and steep angle will not hold up very well. It is probably more difficult to harden these steels to 62+ and have them behave very well, I would think they would be a bit brittle.

Then there is a multitude of powdered metal steels like CPM 154, S35vn, M390, Elmax etc. Most people hold these steels in high regard. The edges with medium small carbides that are more evenly spaced work quite well. They will slice rope and cardboard longer than the typical carbon steels. (Not really the best test for cutting food) It remains to be learned how well these steels will do in kitchen knives at high hardness and sharp angles. I guess these steels sharpen easily enough in kitchen knives with waterstones but for outdoor knives - diamond plates are preferred.

I have not tested all these steels and these are my general impressions, as much from reading as testing. My general impressions are that Stainless blades are more difficult to sharpen and usually have and need a more obtuse edge angle - maybe 30-40 degrees inclusive instead of 20-30 degrees inclusive.

Carbon steels probably loose some sharpness just to reactions to food and humidity.

The vast majority of household have bad knives and poor sharpening. I guess the average non-knife nut would not notice differences in sharpness much and wouldn't sharpen enough to notice a difference. I have pocket and outdoor knives in many steels and easily notice sharpening and cutting differences, but I am not sure how the thinness of a thin gyuto with stainless steel may be virtually no different to sharpen than a carbon steel as others have stated.

Anyway, I like them both, except mass produced stainless is generally really bad (Soft, thick,etc). Whereas custom stainless knives are usually very good.

This is what I see from my experience and reading Kevin Cashem, Roman Landis, Larrin, Devin and other metal science experts.

David

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I like the S35Vn steel I bought a warther & put a thin edge on it.It holds an edge fairly well with cutting sessions.The M390 I have used in a folder I would like to see a Gyuto made out of that steel I am sure it would be expensive.

I have heard so much about the Kono. HD it is a little more cost than the WS it must be a very good blade.What is the def. of carbon steel is a little fuzzy M390 has a higher carbon contant than many so called C blades.I just love sharpening carbon steel it gets so sharp so fast if a little mud gets on the blade your fingers do not slip like on stainless.I have sharpened many stainless knives for other people in the food buss. including Shuns & other brands.The stainless Yanagi to me are inferior to the carbon Yanagi.

 

[David Metzger]

Yeah "carbon steel" I guess was named that meaning that there is enough carbon in the steel to harden the steel. Once you get to about .8 % carbon, the carbon is not helping the hardening as I understand it. I guess this was before stainless steels were invented since stainless steels for knives have carbon and sometime much more than the "carbon steels". I think the extra carbon changes the matrix of the steel as well as forming carbides.

David

 

[ajhuff]

The amount of carbon in the matrix is pretty much fixed at 0.5% for most steels. The more alloying elements you have, the more carbon you need.

Carbon steels get their strength from the addition of carbon. This is in contrast to low alloy steels, or high alloy steels, stainless steels or tool steels etc.

-AJ

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I've switched to SS or Semi(Kono HD and Swedish),too lazy,don't care about patina and too busy at work to fuss over my knives.Still love carbon,just not at work.

I think at work is where carbons excell,they do not do well at all laying around not being used.When I first started using carbon Masamoto's many yrs. ago they were so superior to the Forchner's I was using.All the Sushi Chef's I know use carbon as do the Fish & meat cutter's in Chinatown.You would be hard pressed to find many stainless blades in the Japan fish markets.

Of coarse I would be the first to admit that when I switched completely to Carbon over 25 yrs. ago,the Masamoto Carbon steel was excellent,and there were no Konosuki HD or AEB-L swedish razor steel.

 

[Still-edo]

I can't afford to join you big boys yet. But this thread convinced me to pull a robbery on my mom for her Old Hickory chef (Don't see to many of those around).