Good Stone Brands?!?

[K813zra]

I was looking around, and is it really worth it that much to buy a $70 stone? what's so bad about getting a $20-30 stone? Like the King Deluxes? or some of the suehiro's? and what's so big about ceramic? I think I like the mud creators. but again I don't much at all... that's why im asking

A lot of factors come into play. Going past a simple king combo will get you a few things. You will not have to flatten as often, as such you will not use up as much stone so quickly. You will, most often, get a faster cutting stone as well. You might, if you so choose, get a stone that does not require soaking in water, which means it will not have to sit out for days at a time drying or live in a pond of water for the rest of its life. Also, if you go true splash and go, such a shapton, you do not have to worry about cracking and or crazing when the stone drys. Mostly because they hold water atop so well that you actually have to push it off to dry it rather than letting it sit. Unlike some resoniod stones that I have used that are said to be splash and go but dry slowly and very unevenly.

Again, up to you. A King works for many, many people. But there is value in going beyond that if only for convenience sake, for many.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

A lot of factors come into play. Going past a simple king combo will get you a few things. You will not have to flatten as often, as such you will not use up as much stone so quickly. You will, most often, get a faster cutting stone as well. You might, if you so choose, get a stone that does not require soaking in water, which means it will not have to sit out for days at a time drying or live in a pond of water for the rest of its life. Also, if you go true splash and go, such a shapton, you do not have to worry about cracking and or crazing when the stone drys. Mostly because they hold water atop so well that you actually have to push it off to dry it rather than letting it sit. Unlike some resoniod stones that I have used that are said to be splash and go but dry slowly and very unevenly.

Again, up to you. A King works for many, many people. But there is value in going beyond that if only for convenience sake, for many.

Cool you definitely answered my question! I was just thinking about that about Not having to soak the stones. And I have to flatten this stone all the time and I didn’t flatten at the beginning so it’s low on one end of the 1k side.

What about using a nagura stone on ceramics? Should this be done or not necessary? The ceramics definitely seem nice, but I just feel like a mud creator is better because of, the mud. Do natural stones create mud?

 

[bennyprofane]

Shapton Pro 1k is similar to watanabe AI 1k?

Very likely the same stone. A user in the German forum had both and compared them, the look and act the same.

 

[HRC_64]

Options for 2 stone sequence:

sp1k + kitayama 8k ($100)
or cho 800 + Hayabusa 4k ($103)
or Cerax + rika 5k ($90)
SP1k +SP 2K +loaded strop ~3-5k ($78 +strop)

Kings KDS is 1k+6k,
about $85 or so for two separate
stones, or $65 for two-sided stone.

(The price savings on the king, it seems,
is really limited to combo stones
or the residential sized stones.)

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Options for 2 stone sequence:

sp1k + kitayama 8k ($100)
or cho 800 + Hayabusa 4k ($103)
or Cerax + rika 5k ($90)
SP1k +SP 2K +loaded strop ~3-5k ($78 +strop)

Kings KDS is 1k+6k,
about $85 or so for two separate
stones, or $65 for two-sided stone.

(The price savings on the king, it seems,
is really limited to combo stones
or the residential sized stones.)

Are these all ceramic?

Wouldn’t it be better to get a 3 or 4K in between? I’m trying to get a full set...

 

[Jovidah]

This might be of use... it's sort of an overiew soaking chart that also lists more about the composition of most of the stones (although far from complete):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ehr9ajjuYGrt5Ccw8KL0MGCufn25wtTsS7VyonC5iuI/edit?usp=sharing

The thread it originates from: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ct-need-help-Grand-UnifiedStone-Soaking-Chart

I'd also keep the Arashiyama 6000 in your 'consideration list'. It can be found surprisingly cheap even though it's a great stone. I far prefer it to my Naniwa professional (chosera) 5000 which in most places costs twice as much.

 

[K813zra]

Cool you definitely answered my question! I was just thinking about that about Not having to soak the stones. And I have to flatten this stone all the time and I didn’t flatten at the beginning so it’s low on one end of the 1k side.

What about using a nagura stone on ceramics? Should this be done or not necessary? The ceramics definitely seem nice, but I just feel like a mud creator is better because of, the mud. Do natural stones create mud?

You can use a nagura as a cleaning stone, if we are talking synthetic nagura but I would not leave the slurry atop the stone as it is normally an unknown or at least unwanted grit size. But it really isn't needed. Flattening your stone will clean all of the old residue off anyway. If you want a cleaning stone look at the DMT mini stones in 600 mesh. They work great for raising a slurry and cleaning and are very cheap. You can use them to change the texture of your stone after flattening too, ie smoothing.

As for natural stones, some make mud on their own over time, some make mud quickly, others make no mud and people like to use a nagura. It really can get much more complicated than that if you really want to get into that but I would get grounded and check out a few synthetics first to learn your preferences.

Very likely the same stone. A user in the German forum had both and compared them, the look and act the same.

At the time I tried one I thought it was identical to my shapton M15. Close enough to my pro (Ha no kuromaku).

 

[Tler]

Not sure if its been mentioned but the Chosera 800
is same price range as King Hyper 1k ($63 delivered)

splash and go and cuts everything with
well regarded feedback and stays flat.

Also a wide range stone that is as fine
as most 1-1.2k stones.

Where are you finding a chosera 800 for $63 delivered? I can't find it anywhere

 

[Xenif]

Im so tired of my King 1k, it does its job but dishs too quickly. Hope I dont open a cannof worms here but if you had one 1k or something around there, splash, soaker, diamond, jnat, fairy dust strop, etc no limit on budget nor size, and you can ONLY have one for the rest of your life, what will that stone be !? (Sit back with &#127871

 

[Chef Doom]

You can never go wrong with the Geshin brand.

If you can find the big clay brick @1000 grit, it will last forever and can be a door stop at the same time.

 

[K813zra]

Im so tired of my King 1k, it does its job but dishs too quickly. Hope I dont open a cannof worms here but if you had one 1k or something around there, splash, soaker, diamond, jnat, fairy dust strop, etc no limit on budget nor size, and you can ONLY have one for the rest of your life, what will that stone be !? (Sit back with &#127871

Hum, I like my shapton pro 1k more than the others I have used. That is not to say that it is the best 1k I have used because it is not. What it is, for me, is a well balanced stone for my needs and it and the 2k go well with my natural stones and my style. Honestly though if I could only have one medium grit stone I would actually prefer the pro 2k but the 1k is more realistic for your scenario.

These kind of questions, for me, are silly though because I don't think I would ever want to get by with just one stone. But I like to play along anyway.

If I could only have one Naka-to (mid grit natural) what would it be? Well, that is a tough one. I am a Naka-to nut. Maybe my "vintage" binsui from Watanabe. I know, that sounds silly because they are so common and really not all that efficient, right? Maybe but I like mine. Raise a little slurry, or a lot, with a diamond plate and it becomes an aggressive monster and particularly if you use loads of pressure. You can raise a burr easily but if you lighten up, a lot, over time it will finish at about 2k. So it has range and it feels good in use. Plus it is pretty. :lol2:

But I love my aoto and similar stones such as monzen...um. This is harder than I thought. Better stick with what synthetics I would keep, that list is so much shorter.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Hum, I like my shapton pro 1k more than the others I have used. That is not to say that it is the best 1k I have used because it is not. What it is, for me, is a well balanced stone for my needs and it and the 2k go well with my natural stones and my style. Honestly though if I could only have one medium grit stone I would actually prefer the pro 2k but the 1k is more realistic for your scenario.

These kind of questions, for me, are silly though because I don't think I would ever want to get by with just one stone. But I like to play along anyway.

If I could only have one Naka-to (mid grit natural) what would it be? Well, that is a tough one. I am a Naka-to nut. Maybe my "vintage" binsui from Watanabe. I know, that sounds silly because they are so common and really not all that efficient, right? Maybe but I like mine. Raise a little slurry, or a lot, with a diamond plate and it becomes an aggressive monster and particularly if you use loads of pressure. You can raise a burr easily but if you lighten up, a lot, over time it will finish at about 2k. So it has range and it feels good in use. Plus it is pretty. :lol2:

But I love my aoto and similar stones such as monzen...um. This is harder than I thought. Better stick with what synthetics I would keep, that list is so much shorter.

See I really want a natural stone honestly! I saw on the Korin instructional videos that he uses a natural stone , but it was higher on one side than the other, I assume from how he used it his angle. So my thing is, do you just ride it out? Do you try and flatten naturals? What’s the price point for these? Personally I’m a naturalist, I like to go back to the origins, and natural stones are just that.

 

[K813zra]

See I really want a natural stone honestly! I saw on the Korin instructional videos that he uses a natural stone , but it was higher on one side than the other, I assume from how he used it his angle. So my thing is, do you just ride it out? Do you try and flatten naturals? What’s the price point for these? Personally I’m a naturalist, I like to go back to the origins, and natural stones are just that.

I guess it depends on the person. I flatten natuarl stones if I feel they need it and particularly if I buy a rough stone that needs some work. However, a flat stone can still be slanted, if that makes sense. I would not waste 3,4,5mm+ of stone trying to even that out. I would just use it.

Naturals range the gamut when it comes to cost. I have seen small koppa as cheap as $35 and stones that go for well over $1000. There are a multitude of reasons for this. Sure, rarity plays a role but size, shape and aesthetics have a lot to do with price. My experience, so far (30+ naturals), has told me that price does not often reflect performance so long as you are buying from a reputable dealer. But I tend to get my stones cheaper specifically because I buy smaller stones. (I am cheap.)

Anyway, natural stones, particularly Awase-to (finishing stones) can be had at a reasonable price. Jon at JKI normally has Oouchi and Hideriyama in stock for $200 or less, at least lately and these are pretty decent stones. Max at Japanses natural stone often times has some smaller type 100 and koppa stones for a good price. His recent batch of Mizukhara were quite nice for around $100 but I don't think there are any left. He does have, or did have some Takashima Koppa left. Also good stones. Watanabe has a koppa page if you want to save some cash but shipping stones direct from Japan is costly. Even a small stone normally is $20+ to ship and larger stones around $50. Aframes Tokyo is a good place to shop but his stones grading system is a bit different than the others as are his descriptions.

This, if you choose to go this route, can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be. But if you do go with a natural my suggestion is to start with something in the Lv 2-3 range for hardness on a JNS scale. That is about an 8-8.3 on the Aframes scale and about HS40-45(ish) for Watanabe. A cheap Naka-to or Aoto is another route you can take as well. A different beast though.

Also, there are a load of knowledgeable guys on here, much more so than myself, so if you do decide to go for naturals, ask loads of questions if you want to. Someone will have an answer!

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I guess it depends on the person. I flatten natuarl stones if I feel they need it and particularly if I buy a rough stone that needs some work. However, a flat stone can still be slanted, if that makes sense. I would not waste 3,4,5mm+ of stone trying to even that out. I would just use it.

Naturals range the gamut when it comes to cost. I have seen small koppa as cheap as $35 and stones that go for well over $1000. There are a multitude of reasons for this. Sure, rarity plays a role but size, shape and aesthetics have a lot to do with price. My experience, so far (30+ naturals), has told me that price does not often reflect performance so long as you are buying from a reputable dealer. But I tend to get my stones cheaper specifically because I buy smaller stones. (I am cheap.)

Anyway, natural stones, particularly Awase-to (finishing stones) can be had at a reasonable price. Jon at JKI normally has Oouchi and Hideriyama in stock for $200 or less, at least lately and these are pretty decent stones. Max at Japanses natural stone often times has some smaller type 100 and koppa stones for a good price. His recent batch of Mizukhara were quite nice for around $100 but I don't think there are any left. He does have, or did have some Takashima Koppa left. Also good stones. Watanabe has a koppa page if you want to save some cash but shipping stones direct from Japan is costly. Even a small stone normally is $20+ to ship and larger stones around $50. Aframes Tokyo is a good place to shop but his stones grading system is a bit different than the others as are his descriptions.

This, if you choose to go this route, can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be. But if you do go with a natural my suggestion is to start with something in the Lv 2-3 range for hardness on a JNS scale. That is about an 8-8.3 on the Aframes scale and about HS40-45(ish) for Watanabe. A cheap Naka-to or Aoto is another route you can take as well. A different beast though.

Also, there are a load of knowledgeable guys on here, much more so than myself, so if you do decide to go for naturals, ask loads of questions if you want to. Someone will have an answer!

Man that’s a lot of information! I didn’t realize it went so deep, thanks for your help for real! I saw they have Natural Nagura stones too, they are only like $30, shoot my synth nagura was like $25 alone