Heavy Chef's Knife - A New Project

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Marko Tsourkan said:
On Heiji where bevels converge about 25mm behind the tip, thickness is about 2mm. That's pretty thick, so you got to apply some pressure to push the tip through the food in lateral cuts unless you are cutting soft stuff primarily like onions or cuts are very shallow.

The very tip is super thin, but it gets progressively thicker after 5-6mm or so.

I am not saying it is impossible. I am just trying to understand why some users find sword geometry perform poorly on lateral cuts, and some find quite the opposite.

Please elaborate.

M
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Marko Tsourkan said:
Convex doesn't have the ridge the way sword grind has, so even it's not shallow (like Kato for instance) it still encounters less resistance in lateral cuts.

This is what I observed trying both, Heiji and Kato, but I don't cut enough to have a good feel for it, so your input is very helpful.

Sword grind is one of the 3 grinds for a heavy workhorse that I would like to try to understand better. Geometry-wise I am there, but I still need to figure out (with your help) if some things of the original geometry can be improved, like the tip.

M
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I'm not sure why it works so well, but I think two things are factors. One, they are pretty symmetrical so they tend to cut straight on horizontal cuts and not steer that much. Two, the ridge/shinogi helps break the friction of the product (usually onion). The convex grind has nothing to break the stiction so it has a lot of surface area in contact with the product. One reason why people experience different results may have to do with the amount of pressure they are applying down on top of the product. Lots of things make horizontal cuts more difficult than regular cutting motion: steering is harder to control, the cut piece is not allowed to fall away from the blade, pressure applied from the product side and cut side, and it's just a cut that gets made less often, therefore less practice. If you use a lot of pressure when holding down the product, you are applying more pressure on the blade and creating more friction/stiction on the cut.
 
I really like Johnny's explanation. I just received my Davis, which is a beefy knife that gets nice and thin at the edge. It's by no means a laser, but it performs great. I was dicing some onions and noticed that I had to pay attention to my downward pressure, and when I did - perfect!
 
When I do horizontal cuts with my Heijis, I slice into the item and then pull the knife tip towards me while pushing the handle away from me. This sweeping motion (and it's not a large motion) ensures that the thinnest section of the knife is used in the cut, and it works very well. I really only do this kind of cut with shallots and onions. I find shallots tend to bind knives more than onions do, and the Heijis perform very well on this test.
 
I have found that convexing in the tip area can be helpful for horizontal cuts (thinking onions) as long as it peaks at mid blade and then thins to the spine. Heavy convexing that continues to the spine makes these cuts very difficult as the width at the spine can wedge just enough to stop the edge from making solid edge contact ahead of the wedge. I am talking about an area about an inch to an inch and a half from the tip. Of course convexing in this area will contribute to wedging on harder, more dense product (e.g. butternut squash) right where cuts are typically initiated for longer cuts in these items. I have found the distal taper to be an equally contributing indicator of how a knife will perform on lateral cuts.

I think that the tip area and the transition to the belly are the sections of a heavier chef knife that really define its character. It is particularly this area of the knife where it is hardest to give all things to all people in my opinion. But if anybody can pull it off...
 
So,I brought 3 knives for testing yesterday - a heavy convex ground (similar to Kato but from a thinner stock), a sword ground (similar to Heiji) and a modified sword ground - sword grind on the right, and convex on the left. There were real Kato, Heiji within hands reach, so I kept switching between mine and those knives to feel a difference.

I ended up cutting 6 white onions, a tray of cooked red beets, and a good number of root vegetables - sweet potatoes, celery roots, rutabagas. Here how the knives performed.

On onions, I tested primarily sword and sword/convex. I liked sword/convex better. Slightly less resistance on vertical and horizontal cuts. No steering. On cooked red beats, tip of the convex grind was pretty effective brunois them.

On root vegetables, heavy convex outshined the other two types on long, deep cuts. On shallow cross cuts, sword and sword/convex grinds separated better.

52100 fared very well in the pro kitchen environment. After several hours, the primary knife I was using (convex) developed light patina, and even though I was wiping all three knives with a wet towel, no discoloration (except light patina) formed.

If only one knife were to be had, it would be convex, if two - convex and sword/convex or sword, and alternate between them depending on cuts.

It's by no means a complete (and conclusive test) and I am not an impartial tester, but I hope that people will reach the same conclusion, after trying these types. The convex gyuto will undergo further testing by the KKF member whose kitchen I visited yesterday, so I should get more feedback about how the knife performs on a variety of foods.

The sword grind gyuto will be reground into heavy convex. The sword/convex will remain unchanged for the time being.

Thanks,

M
 
The shape of this knife looks great Marko! I really dig it.

I've come to the same conclusion as you, that a convex grind cuts better for me. I prefer a symmetrical grind to minimize steering and give max control. I think asym grind has certain advantages, especially if you are doing a lot of very thin slicing of harder food items, but over all I find symmetrical grind to be more versatile and easy to control.

Thanks for sharing - love seeing this project develop.
 
What is a sword grind? Tried going back a couple pgs couldn't find any descriptors
 
Sword grind is when bevels are cut into the sides creating "shoulders". An example of sword grind is Heiji knives.
 
It looks like both knives (convex and sword/convex) will be going to a prospective buyer for a trial and feedback before returning back to me for maker's mark and saya.
 
Thx for the posts Marko. This makes sense to what I have witnessed, and not knowing why I liked it. I hope one day....
 
I will try one more geometry, and I call it the day and work on some other types - a scimitar, a miroshi among others.

M
 
I am putting this project on hold till I get a feedback on two geometries that that I made so far. Once a third geometry sample arrives, will resume working on a heavy chefs.
 
I finally got a knife in a third geometry that I would like to try. Currently am studying it and will make a prototype shortly.
 
sounds like an upgraded Wusthof ... I love my 8" Classic for cutting up chicken as well as other tasks.
I'd certainly be interested in something like that ... what would the estimated price point be?
 
Actually, quite different than Wuesthof. The heavy chefs' implied the weight, not the thickness behind the edge. It will not fare well cutting through a chicken, or any other stuff it is not supposed to cut. It's by no means a Western deba.
 
OK, the third geometry prototype is heading for testing to Minneapolis in a pro kitchen. Overnighting it tomorrow, hope it will get there by Thanksgiving.

This is 250mm gyuto in 52100, 3.4mm over the heel, 2.5mm 50mm from the tip. With a handle it will probably weigh around 275-290g. If geometry doesn't need much tweaking, I will produce a few of these in stainless and semi-stainless (A2) steel.


I am also going to do another in a geometry similar to Heiji in 52100 and that one is likely to go to Australia for a second round of testing.

Thanks guys for helping me out with testing and feedback!

M
 
OK, this one is on the way to Minnesota via USPS Express Mail for tomorrow delivery. Let's hope it will get there, as I am very anxious to hear about its performance.

M
 
I am very anxious to hear about this knife's performance. I haven't ground a knife in this geometry ever before. The 250mm knife is 275g heavy, no flex on the spine, is blade heavy, just what a heavy work horse should be, I guess.

I incorporated features into this knife's geometry that I came to like from several knives that made an impression on me. I think it's a good knife for what it is - heavy prep work, where weight of the knife is used to finish the cut.

I was running late (surprise) and didn't have time to take pictures, so they might come from the tester, or might not.

M
 
Here is a quick and dirty phone pic. I actually shot a couple of videos but can't figure out how to get them posted. I am working on it.

Initial impressions have been very good. The size, heft and balance are what I look for in a knife of this type. The balance point is at the very front of my index finger when in a full pinch grip. Wednesday the knife cut very well, even without a finished edge on it. Today with an edge (Gesshin 2k, red aoto, naked felt) it performed well on a shift of mostly fish and meat butchering. The edge was still very good after cleaning and portioning 25# of fish and 45# of fatty beef. It seems I have only scratched the surface on the edge retention evaluation. The grind is a good blend of thin enough to cut well but robust enough to not worry. The handle is substantial. It fills my large hands well and is on the longer side, probably to zero in the superb balance. The knife inspires confidence and the steel feels ready for war.

image.jpg
 
At first I thought the first tester knife with no neck was a little odd...and I used it and it was fine...before I knew it I didn't even notice it. Now that I see this one...I think I prefer it with the choked up handle, ferrule right behind the heel.
 
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