Honing rods ( Steels ) & Ceramic rods & SEM Images

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branwell

branwell

Straffanforge
KKF Supporting Member
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In a thread yesterday there was discussion of "Steels" and ceramic rods. My 2 cents offer was that Steels remove very little if any metal and work by knocking an edge straight, where a ceramic rod is more like a round version of a sharpening stone and work by removing metal.

Hmmmmmm. Turns out that might only be partially true at best.

Science of Sharp did some nice coverage of this with scanning electron microscope images. Very interesting.

They cover "A range of honing rods are compared; a traditional ribbed steel (Wustof), a smooth ceramic rod, a smooth/polished “butcher’s” steel (Victorinox), a tungsten carbide sharpener (Chestnut tools Universal Sharpener), the Spyderco Sharpmaker (204MF) and a diamond-embedded rod."

https://scienceofsharp.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/
 
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Thanks, interesting article. They show close up what happens when a mushroomed edge is honed with a ribbed steel rod, and what happens when a blunted edge is honed with ceramic and smooth steel rods. Looks like my smooth steel is having a similar effect as a ceramic rod.

It would be interesting to see the effects of all three rod types with both edge types, ie. with the other three of the six cases.
 
branwell said:
In a thread yesterday there was discussion of "Steels" and ceramic rods. My 2 cents offer was that Steels remove very little if any metal and work by knocking an edge straight, where a ceramic rod is more like a round version of a sharpening stone and work by removing metal.

Hmmmmmm. Turns out that might only be partially true at best.

Science of Sharp did some nice coverage of this with scanning electron microscope images. Very interesting.

They cover "A range of honing rods are compared; a traditional ribbed steel (Wustof), a smooth ceramic rod, a smooth/polished “butcher’s” steel (Victorinox), a tungsten carbide sharpener (Chestnut tools Universal Sharpener), the Spyderco Sharpmaker (204MF) and a diamond-embedded rod."

https://scienceofsharp.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/
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the edges after honing don't look pretty to say the least
 
Mr.Wizard said:
All the stoned edges he has imaged look pretty rough at that magnification.
Click to expand...
so what are you trying to say by that ?
that using a honing steel is okay because at that magnification edges produced by stones don't look pretty either ?
 
If you read his article, it explains what happens pretty well. Effectively, the "common knowledge" that steels are just for bending back deformed edges and that they don't actually abrade the steel is, like much common knowledge, absolute bunk. Steels can and do build an edge through wear thanks to applying a relatively massive amount of force onto a relatively tiny area of the blade.

You can use a steel or ceramic rod to refresh an edge or to build one entirely. It works absolutely by abrading steel like a stone would. I feel that you are just likely to have a worse time getting extremely consistent results than you would with a decent stone. It's going to be harder to hold a consistent angle, and much harder to maintain a somewhat consistent force.

I have a couple of very nice steels and they sit in a drawer and never see the sun. I would have to be incredibly desperate to bring a steel onto one of my "nice" blades. And given the number of stones living in my house, along with strops of myriad materials and compounds on a number of those, I don't see any reason I'd ever be that desperate.

Back in the way back time, when I worked in professional kitchens, and even just back before I fell down the rabbit hole of MORE KNIVES BETTER KNIVES NOW NOW NOW, I'd steel my old Wustofs and Mundials every use or every other use. It worked "fine."
 
r0bz said:
so what are you trying to say by that ?
that using a honing steel is okay because at that magnification edges produced by stones don't look pretty either ?
Click to expand...

What were you trying to say by "the edges after honing don't look pretty to say the least?"
 
@r0bz Which images are you comparing? To my eye only the stropped edges look nice, but I may have missed a better one off the stones.
 
@r0bz Not necessarily leather. He has used denim, Nanocloth, balsa, etc. Images from The Pasted Strop – part 2

Shapton 8000 edge:

sh8k_e_01.jpg



After stropping:

stropped_microconvex_01.jpg
 
so basically in his testing, both fine steel and grooved steel and ceramic steel make the knife sharp again by creating a micro-bevel.
if so why is the grooved steel so unrecommended?
if all of the options do the same thing ??
 
r0bz said:
so basically in his testing, both fine steel and grooved steel and ceramic steel make the knife sharp again by creating a micro-bevel.
if so why is the grooved steel so unrecommended?
if all of the options do the same thing ??
Click to expand...
@stringer
I presume you read the article what is your take on that ??
 
r0bz said:
@stringer
I presume you read the article what is your take on that ??
Click to expand...
I just do what works for me. A grooved steel is fine for soft steel. I like ceramic for Japanese knives. I made this determination after trying both side by side for three decades in pro kitchens. I trust that data more than electron microscopy or YouTube videos.
 
stringer said:
I just do what works for me. A grooved steel is fine for soft steel. I like ceramic for Japanese knives. I made this determination after trying both side by side for three decades in pro kitchens. I trust that data more than electron microscopy or YouTube videos.
Click to expand...
would you say its worth investing in a dickoron micro @Benuser isn't responding?
also if you use the ceramic alot your edge will move to a thicker part of the blade how do you counter that ?
 
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