Honyaki "feel"

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esoo

esoo

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I'd been meaning to ask a question like this, but since it was asked in the flipper thread, I'm going to pull it out to its own thread
Jovidah said:
Actually one thing I wonder about; how is the cutting feedback on a honyaki like the Hiromoto? The same as a monosteel like a ginga? Or different somehow?
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This is exactly what I want to know. As a huge monosteel fan, the one thing I'm missing is a honyaki/differentially hardened blade. I need to fix that but board feel is something I am curious about (you'll see why below)

So peeps, what is your opinion?

Now there was one reply
Barmoley said:
Some people claim they can feel a difference. I can't, I also don't know of a mechanism that would create a difference.
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So here's the thing, I've had one honyaki (well two but we wont about the other one). It was a MCX Spåre 26c3. I did not like the feel of it on the board. It thudded into the board in a very dead way that I thought was unpleasant. Very different feel compared to his high hardness ApexUltra of the same style.

So before I go and try to chase a custom to my specs to round out my collection, I'm curious about how people think they feel.
 
It's not night and day, but I find Honyaki have a density and resonance that mono steels don't seem possess, at least the ones I have tried. A honyaki with high hardness seems alive and sings, for want of a better term. It could be the relative hardness and if a monosteel was taken to the same HRC as a differentially hardened honyaki it would be indistinguishable. My Denka's with their 65-66HRC feel very honyakish on the board, so there could be something in that reasoning. The cyro hardened Tsourkan 52100 mono steel I owned didn't feel like my Ashi Honyaki 240. Anyone know that hardness Marko gets with this steel?
 
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe anyone can feel the difference between any popular knife steels that are sharpened to the same angle, with a knife of the same grind, of the same weight, for one single cooking/cutting session (i.e. losing sharpness will not be noticed). I just can't see what mechanism would allow anyone to notice a difference.

I'd love to have a real life "blind taste test" with a factory or maker that has 10+ knives all created, all identical in grind, sharpening angle and everything else, with the only difference being the core steel (or entire steel if it's all of one type). Everyone gets 5 minutes and some common ingredients to try the knives on. At the end, they have to label the steels. Outside of rust/patina, I don't think anyone would do better than chance.

It would be interesting, actually, for a maker to create a pass-around knife of a mystery steel. Nobody is allowed to sharpen it, and they only get one cooking session each to use it. After 10 people have used it, people have to vote on what steel they think it is.
 
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esoo said:
So here's the thing, I've had one honyaki (well two but we wont about the other one). It was a MCX Spåre 26c3. I did not like the feel of it on the board. It thudded into the board in a very dead way that I thought was unpleasant. Very different feel compared to his high hardness ApexUltra of the same style.
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This is interesting. I had the same MCX Spåre and I thought it felt good in use, albeit maybe a little fragile-feeling. This is a weird detail but it also had a nice resonant "ting" sound if you tapped it on your fingernail or whatever, while most knives either sound tinny or just dampened.

Also had an Isas honyaki that felt very different, much more damp and not so nice feeling. I think it was not quite as hard as the MCX.

Regardless, grind, profile, and hardness have independent effects on cutting feel and once you've controlled for those I'm dubious that honyaki vs not has much if any impact.
 
yoyoma said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe anyone can feel the difference between any popular knife steels that are sharpened to the same angle, with a knife of the same grind, of the same weight, for one single cooking/cutting session (i.e. losing sharpness will not be noticed). I just can't see what mechanism would allow anyone to notice a difference.

I'd love to have a real life "blind taste test" with a factory or maker that has 10+ knives all created, all identical in grind, sharpening angle and everything else, with the only difference being the core steel (or entire steel if it's all of one type). Everyone gets 5 minutes and some common ingredients to try the knives on. At the end, they have to label the steels. Outside of rust/patina, I don't think anyone would do better than chance.

It would be interesting, actually, for a maker to create a pass-around knife of a mystery steel. Nobody is allowed to sharpen it, and they only get one cooking session each to use it. After 10 people have used it, people have to vote on what steel they think it is.
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Should be a fairly good to test drive an Ashi Honyaki and a Ginga W#2. Same steel, both mono steel, laserish grinds and about as equivalent as you can get, with the exception of the differential hardening and hardness.
 
For the most part, I'm pretty indifferent to feel on the board as they all feel "good". I've used steels from 60 to 66HRC in both clad and monosteel and had no complaints for the most part.

My three outliers would be:
1. The Spåre honyaki which felt dead on the board.
2. Markin's REX121 which also had a bit of a weird dead feel. I'll admit here there was a profile thing going on which didn't gel so there could've been a mix of things going on
3. A Raquin 145SC felt *hard* after using my Shihan A2 (but I'd never noticed that in solo use)
 
yoyoma said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't believe anyone can feel the difference between any popular knife steels that are sharpened to the same angle, with a knife of the same grind, of the same weight, for one single cooking/cutting session (i.e. losing sharpness will not be noticed). I just can't see what mechanism would allow anyone to notice a difference.
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But here's the thing - that is really irrelevant. If I've got A2 and ApexUltra, I want the heat treated differently which leads to different grinds and different edges.

I've got AU at 66HRC and A2 at 60. They have different grinds and edges on them, as I would expect them to. Both great performers, but I would want them ground them same (even though they are both quite thin)
 
timebard said:
This is interesting. I had the same MCX Spåre and I thought it felt good in use, albeit maybe a little fragile-feeling. This is a weird detail but it also had a nice resonant "ting" sound if you tapped it on your fingernail or whatever, while most knives either sound tinny or just dampened.

Also had an Isas honyaki that felt very different, much more damp and not so nice feeling. I think it was not quite as hard as the MCX.

Regardless, grind, profile, and hardness have independent effects on cutting feel and once you've controlled for those I'm dubious that honyaki vs not has much if any impact.
Click to expand...

It was weird. I really really wanted to like the knife but that feeling just threw me off. I've got the ApexUltra version of it now and really love it.
 
It is all subjective. I personally don't believe anyone can feel the difference between Honyaki, sanmai, monosteel, or really, the feel between each and every steel out there. Lots claim to, but come on. Give anyone a double blind study and suddenly Pepsi is actually better than Coke.
 
DanielC said:
It is all subjective. I personally don't believe anyone can feel the difference between Honyaki, sanmai, monosteel, or really, the feel between each and every steel out there. Lots claim to, but come on. Give anyone a double blind study and suddenly Pepsi is actually better than Coke.
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I agree it's subjective and I'm not trying to imply that one is better than the other. For me, it's just that the one honyaki I've had felt different, and since I've had blades by the same maker in the same profile/grind, I'm trying to understand if that was a characteristic of the honyaki or just that blade. Being handmade, maybe something just went sideways on that blade.
 
esoo said:
I agree it's subjective and I'm not trying to imply that one is better than the other. For me, it's just that the one honyaki I've had felt different, and since I've had blades by the same maker in the same profile/grind, I'm trying to understand if that was a characteristic of the honyaki or just that blade. Being handmade, maybe something just went sideways on that blade.
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Taken to its simplest I think the biggest differentiator is steel hardness, all other variables being fairly equal.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
Taken to its simplest I think the biggest differentiator is steel hardness, all other variables being fairly equal.
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I would think the same, but the ApexUltra and 26c3 honyaki at 66HRC felt different.

Based on the comments so far, I guess it may have been something up with the blade and I should be giving it another shot.
 
esoo said:
I would think the same, but the ApexUltra and 26c3 honyaki at 66HRC felt different.

Based on the comments so far, I guess it may have been something up with the blade and I should be giving it another shot.
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How secure is Spare with his hardness. Could it be lower than expected? Was the blade tested to 66?
 
I’ve had a few honyakis and still have a JB honyaki gyuto, theres definitely a “feel” but matched up with other monosteels in a blindfolded test and I probably couldn’t tell you which is which

I had a Goko Kogetsu W1 that felt more “honyaki” ish to me than my honyaki’s if that makes any sense

Like others mentioned its all subjective
 
There might even be a difference in feel of mizu vs abura quenched blade but that is speculative.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
honyakish
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This is my new favorite word.

It's difficult for me to imagine that one can draw conclusions from two different knives with different characteristics in addition to one being differentially hardened and one not. That is, I have different knives, several are honyaki, and I'd put any differences in board feel down to profile, grind, handle, etc well before I'd consider the honyakish gestalt.

It would be interesting to have someone make two IDENTICAL knives, with the only variable being the differential hardening, and see. I personally suspect it's a lot like those audiophiles who claim to hear differences when changing variables that absolutely cannot bear on the equation. They sure believe it, but empiricism has no place in matters of the heart.
 
Here's one that isn't subjective.

As far as hardness and microstructure is concerned, there's no difference between quenching a blade in engineered quench oil or water. The steel doesn't get any harder or better quenched in water than it does in quench oils.

The only real benefit to quenching in water is for slightly more activity in a hamon. That's it.

You can quote me on this every day of the week.
 
That's interesting. I had always understood that the quenchant and the method both had an effect on the microstructure.
 
HolyDiverScallop said:
That's interesting. I had always understood that the quenchant and the method both had an effect on the microstructure.
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The microstructure of the hamon, sure. It allows for more activity in an area that isn't your cutting edge.

As far as microstructure of the hardened steel, no. What dictates any of that is heat treat schedule. The methods of thermal cycling and austenizing. This varies by soak times and temperature.

Steel requires to be cooled at a minimum rate to harden. It doesn't gain more hardness if it gets past that window any faster with water than with oil.

Engineered oils made for specific types of steel are designed to cool the steel fast enough to make it within this window.

Anything saying otherwise is snake oil.
 
DanielC said:
Here's one that isn't subjective.

As far as hardness and microstructure is concerned, there's no difference between quenching a blade in engineered quench oil or water. The steel doesn't get any harder or better quenched in water than it does in quench oils.

The only real benefit to quenching in water is for slightly more activity in a hamon. That's it.

You can quote me on this every day of the week.
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Interesting. I've heard contrary. Oil quenched honyaki giving a more defined Hamon. I've also heard Hiroshi Ashi uses a proprietary oil quench that mimics mizu. And Ashi's Hamon I consider one of the best in the business.
But I bow to your personal experience having never personally quenched anything.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
Interesting. I've heard contrary. Oil quenched honyaki giving a more defined Hamon. I've also heard Hiroshi Ashi uses a proprietary oil quench that mimics mizu. And Ashi's Hamon I consider one of the best in the business.
But I bow to your personal experience having never personally quenched anything.
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There might be a mix of misinterpretation or mistranslation.

Parks 50 is an engineered quenching oil that is very close to water in speed. There are polymer mixes that are even faster. In the end, no matter what, any portion of the steel that cooled off fast enough to harden, is going to be at its peak quenched hardness given whatever microstructure existed in the steel prior to the final heat, being the austenizing heat. Parks 50 takes, for example, Aogami and shirogami to its peak hardness of 66-67rc. For kitchen knife thicknesses, the entirety of the blade that isn't coated in clay to inhibit hardening is going to be full hard whether it was water or fast speed quenchant oil.

Where they differ is how quickly they can harden the steel with a lump of clay on it. Water does the job faster and thus, whispier ashi lines are produced in water. Clay application also plays a big role in this. They probably are not applying clay the same way between both, knowing the limitations of oil when it comes to bringing out activity. If I'm going for activity in a hamon, water is king, but the hardened portions of the steel, the cutting edge both come to the same peak conclusion regardless of quenchant.
 
Other limiting factors is composition of the steel. Most steels in this industry have enough elements in them like Manganese (which is usually the main element used for widening the cooling curve) to allow quench oils to work. Even with low Manganese like western W-2 , which often had .2-.3%Mn content was able to produce beautiful hamon in quench oil. Even in thick dimensions. Tamahagane, bloomery, oroshigane, ultra Pure wootz all lack some of this modern chemistry which narrows the hardening window, thus water is usually used because it is fast enough, and where it isn't is where you see the transition into the hamon.
 
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