Honyaki vs Monosteel

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strumke

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Title says it all, is there a difference between something like Devin or Will's monosteel vs knives labeled as honyaki?
 
I think I read a post by Marko where he pretty much said Honyaki is just a much harder monosteel blade forged traditionally which makes it a very difficult process
 
strumke said:
Title says it all, is there a difference between something like Devin or Will's monosteel vs knives labeled as honyaki?
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Because honyaki are differentially hardened (the spine area is not as hard as much as the edge area), the edges are quite a bit harder than monosteel knives. For the same steel, this equates to better edge retention, though sharpening (and thinning) a honyaki becomes more difficult.
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
Because honyaki are differentially hardened (the spine area is not as hard as much as the edge area), the edges are quite a bit harder than monosteel knives. For the same steel, this equates to better edge retention, though sharpening (and thinning) a honyaki becomes more difficult.
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Im not sure I understand; if I have a piece of steel and I target a given HRC, why should there be a difference based on whether I let the spine heat up to that target in terms of the edge's hardness?

I'd also be surprised if for a given method you got different HRCs at the edge.

I could see taking the heat treat further given the added flexibility in the spine though. At some point 10" long pieces of steel tend to get a bit wonky.
 
redisburning said:
Im not sure I understand; if I have a piece of steel and I target a given HRC, why should there be a difference based on whether I let the spine heat up to that target in terms of the edge's hardness?

I'd also be surprised if for a given method you got different HRCs at the edge.

I could see taking the heat treat further given the added flexibility in the spine though. At some point 10" long pieces of steel tend to get a bit wonky.
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It's not difficult to understand the concepts behind differential hardening.

You'll find the basics in this article: http://www.knives.com/knives/howto/19-bob-engnath-on-clay-hardening-and-tempering.html
 
My understanding is that the spine is covered with some type clay (typically), which prevents the spine from getting as hot. This produces the wavy hamon at the edges of the clay. I thought that making the spine not quite as hard means that you get some added toughness and durability for the blade overall, but you get the benefits of a hard edge.
Some makers use honyaki to refer to a monosteel, rather than clad, knife. I believe it's mizu-honyaki that refers to a blade that is differentially hardened.
 
Okay, so the main difference is the differential hardening?

Mono steel + differential hardening = honyaki?
 
toddnmd said:
My understanding is that the spine is covered with some type clay (typically), which prevents the spine from getting as hot. .
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IIRC it gets just as hot everywhere - metal is great at conducting heat so it is harder not to be of equal temperature, but the speed of heat removal is slower where the clay is thicker so you don't have as much martensite there. I suppose some of the forum BS are having quite a laugh now reading that though - chances of me being wrong are high.
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
It's not difficult to understand the concepts behind differential hardening.

You'll find the basics in this article: http://www.knives.com/knives/howto/19-bob-engnath-on-clay-hardening-and-tempering.html
Click to expand...

Right but I still can't see how deferentially hardening the blade gives one knife an HRC that is different than another with all else being equal. If you can attain higher hardness by changing the application due to the process, fine, but afaik 60HRC is 60HRC is 60HRC.
 
redisburning said:
Right but I still can't see how deferentially hardening the blade gives one knife an HRC that is different than another with all else being equal. If you can attain higher hardness by changing the application due to the process, fine, but afaik 60HRC is 60HRC is 60HRC.
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As the warden said in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

Monosteel knives that are not differentially hardened are usually no more than 60-61 Rockwell, while honyaki knives are typically 65 Rockwell for the lower half of the blade.

Got it now?
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
As the warden said in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

Monosteel knives that are not differentially hardened are usually no more than 60-61 Rockwell, while honyaki knives are typically 65 Rockwell for the lower half of the blade.

Got it now?
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Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

Out of curiosity, what allows for a 10" clad knife to not bend/warp after ht? I would expect the core to exert the same forces as if it were the only piece of steel.
 
redisburning said:
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

Out of curiosity, what allows for a 10" clad knife to not bend/warp after ht? I would expect the core to exert the same forces as if it were the only piece of steel.
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I'm not a knifemaker so I can only speculate, but first, the hard core of a san mai blade is only 1/3 the overall thickness of the blade, so the forces are diminished, and second, it is my understanding that san mai blades are capable of being straightened without breaking, so that warping is expected and is correctable.

Perhaps a knifemaker reading this might care to jump in.
 
Rick... There is a question I've been meaning to ask for ages.
I thought differentially hardened honyaki are called mizu honyaki.
And as far as I'm aware regular honyaki are just described as "true forged" monosteel.
So what's the difference between regular honyaki (not differentially heat treated) and monosteel blades ?
 
going off topic a bit. I am pretty sure oil quenched blade is still called "honyaki" but not "mizu-honyaki" since "mizu" means water. Oil quenching gives more control over water quenching but yields less hardness. Even oil quenched, the blade can still be differential hardened, giving a very nice hamon.
 
Hi Geoff,

Mizu honyaki is water quenched (mizu == water), the other is abura yaki which is oil quenched. Both of these two traditional method usually use some sort of spine covering coating during quenching process.


Geo87 said:
Rick... There is a question I've been meaning to ask for ages.
I thought differentially hardened honyaki are called mizu honyaki.
And as far as I'm aware regular honyaki are just described as "true forged" monosteel.
So what's the difference between regular honyaki (not differentially heat treated) and monosteel blades ?
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And then there is Suisin Inox Honyaki which I believe to be a marketing term, though the knives are very good nonetheless.
 
schanop said:
Hi Geoff,

Mizu honyaki is water quenched (mizu == water), the other is abura yaki which is oil quenched. Both of these two traditional method usually use some sort of spine covering coating during quenching process.
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Thanks mate that makes sense. so just to clarify all honyaki are differentially heat treated?
 
Geo87 said:
Thanks mate that makes sense. so just to clarify all honyaki are differentially heat treated?
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Just the two traditional honyaki methods.

Like Jim said, Suisin Inox Honyaki and Masahiro Honyaki, for example, are using honyaki as marketing term.
 
schanop said:
Just the two traditional honyaki methods.

Like Jim said, Suisin Inox Honyaki and Masahiro Honyaki, for example, are using honyaki as marketing term.
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I thought just honyaki meant something vague like "true forged," so the term may not be purely marketing.

However, except for a couple brands that are known to use the term honyaki (like Suisin, perhaps also Nenox and others), when I hear honyaki, I usually think that is used to mean "mizu honyaki" or differentially hardened, whether that be oil or water quenched. And I think expensive.

(Also found this old post; didn't have time to read through all of it, but I think there are some people with more knowledge than I have who commented: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/835070/tp/1/)
 
Zenkou is the more accurate term for non-differentially hardened monosteel knives.
 
I think Jon and Mari had a conversation about this very subject not too long ago. Can anyone find that link or maybe they can chime in again here.
 
Lizzardborn said:
IIRC it gets just as hot everywhere - metal is great at conducting heat so it is harder not to be of equal temperature, but the speed of heat removal is slower where the clay is thicker so you don't have as much martensite there. I suppose some of the forum BS are having quite a laugh now reading that though - chances of me being wrong are high.
Click to expand...

You are totally right about that.
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
I'm not a knifemaker so I can only speculate, but first, the hard core of a san mai blade is only 1/3 the overall thickness of the blade, so the forces are diminished, and second, it is my understanding that san mai blades are capable of being straightened without breaking, so that warping is expected and is correctable.

Perhaps a knifemaker reading this might care to jump in.
Click to expand...

You are correct. A mono steel blade is very difficult to straighten after heat treat. Usually it entails counter clamping the warp and re tempering. Sometimes several times to get it straight. A sanmai blade with a hard core and non hardenable outer layers can usually be straightened with a mallet on a stump or similar soft surface.
 
same goes for honyaki blades with a softer spine... much easier to straighten that without the softer spine
 
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