How To Get Dope Customs

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OwlWoodworks

OwlWoodworks

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There was a discussion in another thread about getting really cool custom pieces from makers that I thought I could give some interesting insight on, being that I am both a maker and a buyer.

PART 1 - THE MAKER

Let's talk maker POV first.

The biggest factor when requesting a custom piece is understanding who the maker is and why they do what they do.

First things first, unique customs are a pain in the ****ing ass. Makers are generally set up to do the thing that they do. Every tool in there shop, every jig, every process is dialed in to do the thing that they do. This makes building that thing fast, consistent and high quality. Even if from your point of view it's something simple like, "Instead of making a 2" thick cutting board can you make it 2.5?". For me in the shop, this will add DAYS to the build. It's a tiny little thing for sure, but it then begs the question, why would I do that. A little tweak like this will likely increase the build time by 50%, so therefore I should be able to increase the price by 50%, right?! Show of hands who would pay an additional $425 for one of my boards with a tiny adjustment like that. There are some people that would, but this is where it again comes back to knowing the maker.

A core tenet of my business is that I charge what my product is genuinely worth. Not what my time is worth, but what the final product is worth. I want people to get there moneys worth. I am setup to build 2" thick cutting boards, and because I have streamlined certain parts of my process to do this efficiently, I can make it so that you get the best bang for your buck. When I make a board that is 2.5" thick, you are no longer getting your moneys worth, and that goes against how I run my business. I'm assuming you can see how this circles back to understanding the maker and why they do what they do. Some makers are happy to do what ever you want, and they just adjust the price to make sure they are getting paid fairly. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. But it's not what I like to do. Hence, understanding the maker.

Another reason custom orders are no fun is because... why? Why would i adjust all the tools in my shop to make a cutting board that will take me twice as long and I'll charge 50% more for. I could just make two of my classic cutting boards which I am good at, love making and setup up for in the same time. I could do one custom order that is more difficult, more time consuming and less profitable which makes one person happy. Or I could make two cutting boards however I want, they will be smooth, fast and of the highest quality, I'll get paid more, the money I get will be from people who are getting there moneys worth, and I will get to make two people happy. Seems like a no brainer to me.

And the last reason is that makers are for the most part people who like to keep there heads down and work quietly. People that lean towards and excel at this kind of detailed entrepreneurial work are not often extremely social and outgoing people. I for one am never happier than when I am in my shop with my headphones on making cutting boards. My wife for example is the opposite, she loves going into the office, chatting with her coworkers and dealing with customers. For me, and a lot of other makers, that sounds like hell. Most makers will tell you the hardest part of the job is dealing with people. Custom orders take it from being something you do completely on your own, exactly the way you want to now having somebody to report to. It becomes even worse if they have paid you in advance because now there is this looming feeling of expectation and having to do exactly what they want. You went from complete freedom, to having a boss. If you're wondering why so many makers send there knives to places like Eating Tools, it is because Abe takes all the shittiest parts of your job off your plate for you. If all you wanna do is swing a hammer and make dope knives, Abe will do the photography, he'll make the instagram post, he'll give you your own page on his website, he'll deal with the shipping, deal with the customers. Makers will do anything to eliminate the need to deal with people. Reference guys like Nick Anger.

There is however one major positive to custom orders and that is getting to do something different. Different all the time is no longer different, it's just madness. I for example take on about one unique custom project a year. That is plenty for me. It can be fun to break out of your comfort zone and do something wild and crazy. You also often learn things from these experiences. New techniques, new ideas, they help you grow and develop. But, all things in moderation. Again everybody is different, I have made hundreds of cutting boards in my life and I am really happy with where I am and what I do. I am not in the phase of my journey where I am constantly innovating and trying new things, trying to discover the new best way to do things, so I don't switch up what I do almost at all. I have at this point believe it or not, done most things, and I build what I build for a reason. I believe it's this best.

Wow, lot's of ramblings, but this is what goes through a makers head when you ask the for a custom. Dread from all the previous people, and builds they have had to deal with.
 
PART 2 - THE CUSTOMER

So what should you be doing as a buyer to get dope customs?! 100%, taking the time to understand what the maker is all about. Lets circle back to the same points above and discuss what you can do as a buyer to make these things work for a maker.

The easiest example is somebody like Yanick because we are all familiar with his work. Yanick is very happy doing what he is doing and he has undoubtedly mastered what he does. Not only that, he does not do this just for fun. He may enjoy his job, but he has a wife and kids he is supporting. So while for us it is fun and exciting getting a knife, for him it is his livelihood. So when joe blow rando americano slides into his DM's and says, "Yo Yanick I got this brilliant idea, full integral bolster, full tang, full kasumi, full payment upfront, full send baby!"

Yanick is going to fully ignore you.

Because why would he want to do any of that. He has a line up of a thousand people who will buy anything her makes. With this one message you have told him you know absolutely nothing about who he is, what he does, what he values and that you are going to be a pain to work with.

Have you ever seen Yanick make an integral bolster, I assure you there's a reason for it. I won't pretend to know exactly what it is because I am not him. However I would assume it has to do with them being a ton of work, requiring a totally different starting billet shape, different equipment and techniques, and likely just not what he enjoys making. Ever done a full stone polish on a knife, I certainly haven't, but I have done lots of polishing and sharpening and oh man are my back and shoulders killing me afterwards. If you know anything about Yanick's health, you would know how not only stupid, but also disrespectful it would be to ask for this. With somebody like Yanick who is at the absolute top of his game and is very consistent in what he does, a less is more approach will get you farther. Take the time to get to know what he enjoys making, what he doesn't like, and make a thoughtful request taking into account both what you want, and what he will want.

Another factor will be cultural differences. We in North America, whether we realize it or not are raised and live in a very independent and largely selfish system. We want the high paying job, the big house, the hot wife and the fast car. We want, want, want the best and the biggest. Not every one in the world was raised like this. Japan would be the polar opposite example. A place where privacy, quiet respect, and everyone getting along is the key to their daily lives. It's the key to their entire country functioning when you look at how many people have to live in such a small place. Makers from places like this that aren't as western in there thoughts or beliefs are not motivated by the same things as us. They will often value things like tradition, morals, and representing their family name in everything they do. These are people who will not be easily swayed by grotesque amounts of money and radical innovation ideas. When requesting a custom from people who have been raised in a totally different system than you, you should take the time to understand what is important to them. Otherwise your simple request may come across as quite rude and again paint you as somebody who they do not want to work with.

Now what about the idea of giving somebody something new and exciting to work on. If you want to try to do this with somebody, you have to really establish yourself as somebody who will be a pleasure to work with. And you should come to whatever this idea may be as a team, it needs to be collaborative. If I, or any other maker are going to embark on the fun, but potentially stressful journey of making something unique, they will want to make sure they are doing it with a customer who is going to be understanding, flexible, respectful and supportive. Not everyone wants this at all though, so not only do you have to be an excellent customer, you also have to be working with a maker who is interested in doing this kind of work. @cooktocut is an excellent example of this. When you look at some of his wild and crazy pieces, they are from people like Jannis, Don and Myself.

Before I proceed, I want to make sure every one understands I am not comparing myself to these people in terms of skill or anything like that, just in what we are interested in doing. Nobody compares to Don's unparalleled attention to detail, and few rival Jannis' pure technical skill in metal work. The thing we all have in common though is that once and a while, we enjoy a wild and crazy project.

Jannis isn't going to radically change the shape of his blades, but he enjoys metallurgy so he will gladly give you a tamahagane honyaki blade. Just be prepared to spend $6k+ and wait potentially years. Don will make you something he has literally never made before because he is secretly a masochist who loves taking on projects that nearly kill him. He will fail a dozen times, give up for a month, then deliver a knife that nobody in the world could replicate because nobody is crazy enough to put the amount of time into getting it perfect as Don is. I will take on maybe one unique project a year, and for me I will do damn near anything, but you have to be an established rock solid customer, and most importantly for me, you have to be passionately excited about not only getting it, but using it. BNIB Queens can kick rocks. Oh, and it's gonna be a while. For me, this is not my living, it is my joy. So I only make boards when I am happy and excited to make them. I have a custom order right now which I accepted about four months ago and haven't even started yet. And the reason is quite literally, that I don't feel like it. I don't make anything unless I'm excited about it. But it's ok because the customer has stated he is happy to wait as long as it takes because he wants it to be something I am happy to make and enjoy. In less words, he understands why I do what I do. That's why I accepted his request in the first place.

Just like Chris' crazy customs coming from a select few makers, my few customs have also gone to a very select group of people. Reference @milangravier @cooktocut @dragjp @Scott Yanick and Don. These are people who either know what its like to be a maker, or that already have lots of cool knives so I know they understand what the process is going to be like. And I should add that I am not perfect, I have been a good customer, and a bad customer. A good maker, and a bad maker. We are human, so don't feel bad if you do or say something wrong or that isn't received well.

In other words, the maker needs to be willing and interested, and the customer needs to have put in the work to understand them and be completely flexible on what may happen. You are asking for something unique that they have potentially never done before, so you need to be prepared for every other aspect of the journey to be just the same. Throw the time line, the perfection and sometimes the budget out the window.

Speaking of budget, the unfortunate reality is in a lot of cases, this is a rich mans game. If you want creativity, beauty and one of a kind, you can't be fickle on price. This is once again on the customer though. It is your responsibility to have researched what the maker prices there work at. If you don't know within about %20 what the project is going to cost, you shouldn't be asking for a custom. There should be almost no need to bring up price because you understand the maker so well and how they do things that you already know what it's going to be. If you spend months or years discussing a piece with a maker, they give you a quote once you figure it all out and you go, "oh I can't afford that", you are the worst. And at the end of the day, not all of us can afford crazy custom pieces, and that's just life. It's a luxury, not a need. Yes I can make you a custom set of boards that could cost anywhere from $2k-$5k, and they'll be amazing and insane. But that's why me and every other maker in the world has our standard stuff too. The stuff that we are setup up to make as streamlined and flawlessly as possible that more people can afford and get. Realistically, 90% of the time the standard thing that somebody makes all the time will be better quality than any custom piece and WAY better bang for your buck anyways. So please take that into account when deciding what you want. Customs are great, but again coming back to what I said before; you are asking for wild, crazy and different, so be prepared to may a premium, for something that will not be perfect.
 
PART 3 - THE CONCLUSION (Thank god!)

Wow, so what have we covered here. Well a lot of rambling nonsense, but it can all be summed up very simply. Do your research on two things:

What does the maker want to do?
What can I do to be a good customer?

Do this, and you will be able to get some really amazing pieces. Just... communicate!

I will undoubtedly think of more things that are important, but for the sake of my typing fingers and your boredom, let's leave it at that. Hopefully this was at least moderately interesting to somebody and helps everyone not only get dope knives, but be a good person and a pleasure to work with.

If you want to see some of the lovely customs I've received, they are all posted here in my collection thread:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/owl-woodworks-collection.60483/

Last but certainly not least, have a good day, you deserve it.
 
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TLDR, skipped to the conclusion... some great advice on customs!
 
Rangen said:
This is really useful, and an excellent read. Thank you for laying it all out.

It can be hard to sort out what would be a fun request for the maker, and what would trigger a shudder, even if you've kept an eye on the work.
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It's so true! and people change too. You could be looking at somebodies instagram and see they've done a bunch of honyaki. So you message them asking for a custom honyaki and they say they hate honyaki now because they were so difficult and no fun. Usually the best thing to do is just talk to them. A good question to ask is "what do you enjoy making, and is there anything you are excited to try in the future"... Then ask for a combination of those things!
 
I have never really understood why people want customization beyond dimensions and material type. Still don't for most all of the reasons explained above. I pick a maker because I like their work. Not because I think it would be really cool if they did something different than their work. It would put my anxiety through the roof to ask a craftsperson to do something that might cost them extra money and time without fairly compensating them for their efforts. Kudos to you and all the other makers willing to tolerate such requests. But I will leave the pushing you to explore your boundaries to someone else. Too much pressure for me. 😂
 
stringer said:
I have never really understood why people want customization beyond dimensions and material type. Still don't for most all of the reasons explained above. I pick a maker because I like their work. Not because I think it would be really cool if they did something different than their work. It would put my anxiety through the roof to ask a craftsperson to do something that might cost them extra money and time without fairly compensating them for their efforts. Kudos to you and all the other makers willing to tolerate such requests. But I will leave the pushing you to explore your boundaries to someone else. Too much pressure for me. 😂
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In a lot of ways I totally agree. It reminds me of when I first started getting tattoos and picking an artist. A friend at work told me to pick an artist where I like every single piece they have done. If you do that and don't influence them at all, you will undoubtedly get yet another piece that you like. Theres something to be said for playing to somebodies strengths.
 
OwlWoodworks said:
I will take on maybe one unique project a year, and for me I will do damn near anything, but you have to be an established rock solid customer, and most importantly for me, you have to be passionately excited about not only getting it, but using it
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One observation I'll point out is that the nature of forums (and Instagram, and Discord and...) is that folks tend to mistake strong relationships with throwing around money without asking questions. They see these guys with massive collections and assume dollars buy clout. On Reddit, we had newcomers regularly asking for recommendations at $1k+ budgets with zero understanding of what they were getting into. Late in 2022, it began to feel like some of the Rolex forums.

I suspect this nature of Internet forums is what drives the expectation for makers to roll out the red carpet if you're rich enough. Or, at least, pretend to be rich enough.
 
Very well said! I've had 6 custom pieces that I can say were definitely out of the maker's normal wheelhouse. One never happened because of a miscommunication, one arrived severly damaged and was basically unusable, and the other 4 are my favorite pieces I have. I always go in with an open wallet, I offer to put down deposits, I reassure the makers I will not change my mind, I tell them repeatedly what I love about their work and why I want them to do this specific project, and I keep my fingers crossed. I do not pester, I remain flexible when inevitable hurdles come up. It's not really a pleasant experience for anyone involved, truth be told. Ordering a custom that the maker does all the time affords you with a confidence that you know what you will pay, you (usually) have a pretty good idea of the timeline, and the maker has the same level of difficulty that they're used to, so they're not uncomfortable either. I can honestly say that there were things that came up on most if not all of those customs that bumped the price up higher than I expected. Did I complain? Absolutely not. With Luke, I believe I was going through a rough patch with my business, so I remember specifically telling him that I want to pay him fairly for his time and his work because I respect him and the art he produces, but to please give me the best price he could. That board ended up costing more than most of my knives, rightfully so because it probably took as much or more time than most of them did to make. Certainly a lot more material. This was the only custom piece that I ever said anything about price to, and I sincerely hope that you did come away from that transaction feeling like you were paid what you deserved, Luke. If not, you might just get that raquin after all 😘

I say all this to say that I for one applaud makers who deal directly with their customers. I think that it's no easy thing, and I appreciate them and their work that much more. When I look at my pieces that were extremely difficult for the maker, I remember all the conversations, I remember the collaborations and the ideas being bounced back and forth. I remember the uncertainty, I remember the restrained impatience, I remember the progress pictures, and I definitely remember that feeling when the finished project was finally born. Those pieces represent that memory for me, the friendships that came from all of those conversations, and it makes the piece so so much more important to me. I have to think that when makers go through their past work, they remember it to. Also, nobody makes cutting boards for giants. I checked.


Oh, and I will one day convince Yanick to make me a rectangle or I will die trying.
 
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Good tips on etiquette and realistic expectations.

And I think a key point is to understand the maker and how they prefer to operate. For example, with the Japanese makers I've worked with, it's most appropriate to keep the requests general, leaving the specifics up to them. On the other hand, other makers appreciate specifics on what works best for you rather than having to make assumptions.
 
@cooktocut Hahahaha, it's true! The giant community is not well represented in the cutting board world these days. And I am here to stand up for your poor little (big?) minority. And I have absolutely no recollection of what I priced your board at. I remember it not being cheap, and I remember you being pleasant to work with. So unfortunately I have nothing to complain about with regards to our transaction and no leverage I can honestly use to guilt that Raquin from your very tall grasp 😅

Though god do I wish I could
 
tostadas said:
Good tips on etiquette and realistic expectations.

And I think a key point is to understand the maker and how they prefer to operate. For example, with the Japanese makers I've worked with, it's most appropriate to keep the requests general, leaving the specifics up to them. On the other hand, other makers appreciate specifics on what works best for you rather than having to make assumptions.
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And this can be a really tricky one because everybody operates so differently. Some people only want to know what length and they want nothing else from you. They are going to make everything else how they see fit. Others are happy to listen to every little detail right down to spine thickness, HRC and grind. And that shouldn't be on the customer to know what the maker expects. They are the ones running the business and they need to tell their customers what they need from them.
 
Well @OwlWoodworks I'm afraid that this post may have been counterproductive for you, because you just wanted to make dope cutting boards, but now you have accidentally revealed yourself to be a really good writer.

Great work and thanks for the insight into the misunderstood world of custom makers, and the frustrations that you must sometimes bear for the sake of your art. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we will strive to be good customers, and to approach these projects in a collaborative and respectful way.

Not that you were scolding anyone, I know that. It was just good to be exposed to the perspective on the other side.
 
OwlWoodworks said:
There was a discussion in another thread about getting really cool custom pieces from makers that I thought I could give some interesting insight on, being that I am both a maker and a buyer.

PART 1 - THE MAKER

Let's talk maker POV first.

The biggest factor when requesting a custom piece is understanding who the maker is and why they do what they do.

First things first, unique customs are a pain in the ****ing ass. Makers are generally set up to do the thing that they do. Every tool in there shop, every jig, every process is dialed in to do the thing that they do. This makes building that thing fast, consistent and high quality. Even if from your point of view it's something simple like, "Instead of making a 2" thick cutting board can you make it 2.5?". For me in the shop, this will add DAYS to the build. It's a tiny little thing for sure, but it then begs the question, why would I do that. A little tweak like this will likely increase the build time by 50%, so therefore I should be able to increase the price by 50%, right?! Show of hands who would pay an additional $425 for one of my boards with a tiny adjustment like that. There are some people that would, but this is where it again comes back to knowing the maker.

A core tenet of my business is that I charge what my product is genuinely worth. Not what my time is worth, but what the final product is worth. I want people to get there moneys worth. I am setup to build 2" thick cutting boards, and because I have streamlined certain parts of my process to do this efficiently, I can make it so that you get the best bang for your buck. When I make a board that is 2.5" thick, you are no longer getting your moneys worth, and that goes against how I run my business. I'm assuming you can see how this circles back to understanding the maker and why they do what they do. Some makers are happy to do what ever you want, and they just adjust the price to make sure they are getting paid fairly. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. But it's not what I like to do. Hence, understanding the maker.

Another reason custom orders are no fun is because... why? Why would i adjust all the tools in my shop to make a cutting board that will take me twice as long and I'll charge 50% more for. I could just make two of my classic cutting boards which I am good at, love making and setup up for in the same time. I could do one custom order that is more difficult, more time consuming and less profitable which makes one person happy. Or I could make two cutting boards however I want, they will be smooth, fast and of the highest quality, I'll get paid more, the money I get will be from people who are getting there moneys worth, and I will get to make two people happy. Seems like a no brainer to me.

And the last reason is that makers are for the most part people who like to keep there heads down and work quietly. People that lean towards and excel at this kind of detailed entrepreneurial work are not often extremely social and outgoing people. I for one am never happier than when I am in my shop with my headphones on making cutting boards. My wife for example is the opposite, she loves going into the office, chatting with her coworkers and dealing with customers. For me, and a lot of other makers, that sounds like hell. Most makers will tell you the hardest part of the job is dealing with people. Custom orders take it from being something you do completely on your own, exactly the way you want to now having somebody to report to. It becomes even worse if they have paid you in advance because now there is this looming feeling of expectation and having to do exactly what they want. You went from complete freedom, to having a boss. If you're wondering why so many makers send there knives to places like Eating Tools, it is because Abe takes all the shittiest parts of your job off your plate for you. If all you wanna do is swing a hammer and make dope knives, Abe will do the photography, he'll make the instagram post, he'll give you your own page on his website, he'll deal with the shipping, deal with the customers. Makers will do anything to eliminate the need to deal with people. Reference guys like Nick Anger.

There is however one major positive to custom orders and that is getting to do something different. Different all the time is no longer different, it's just madness. I for example take on about one unique custom project a year. That is plenty for me. It can be fun to break out of your comfort zone and do something wild and crazy. You also often learn things from these experiences. New techniques, new ideas, they help you grow and develop. But, all things in moderation. Again everybody is different, I have made hundreds of cutting boards in my life and I am really happy with where I am and what I do. I am not in the phase of my journey where I am constantly innovating and trying new things, trying to discover the new best way to do things, so I don't switch up what I do almost at all. I have at this point believe it or not, done most things, and I build what I build for a reason. I believe it's this best.

Wow, lot's of ramblings, but this is what goes through a makers head when you ask the for a custom. Dread from all the previous people, and builds they have had to deal with.
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can you make my new hardwood floor
it's like a board but just a bit bigger
with the wood longer and sideways
quantity discount?
 
chiffonodd said:
Well @OwlWoodworks I'm afraid that this post may have been counterproductive for you, because you just wanted to make dope cutting boards, but now you have accidentally revealed yourself to be a really good writer.

Great work and thanks for the insight into the misunderstood world of custom makers, and the frustrations that you must sometimes bear for the sake of your art. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we will strive to be good customers, and to approach these projects in a collaborative and respectful way.

Not that you were scolding anyone, I know that. It was just good to be exposed to the perspective on the other side.
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Oh god, If I start getting custom writing requests I'm gonna lose my mind. 😅 I'm glad you enjoyed it though and also that you understand this is far from a scold. For every bad customer, there is an equally bad maker. You could be the most polite and understanding person in the world and it won't make a difference if the maker is a rude jerk. They have their part to play in the relationship as well. But that's a variable we can't control, so there's no sense discussing how to turn the maker into a better person 😂
 
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