Is this the best Santoku knife?

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Advantage of the Shig is its in Europe and so saves about $100 on shipping, duty and handling fees which an expensive knife from the US would incur.
 
TB_London said:
Advantage of the Shig is its in Europe and so saves about $100 on shipping, duty and handling fees which an expensive knife from the US would incur.
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Ahhh...forgot about that part...that's a pretty serious consideration...shig all the way.
 
TB_London said:
If I wanted a Santoku the Shig that Maxim has on his site would be calling my name.... Looks like it would be pretty close to the best Santoku
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Sorry i must have missed it, whats the site/link for this?
 
This thread is so funny. I know we have a passion for knifes but sometimes it's just way to much. Why shouldn't a santoku work great? I have used one for several hours in a pro-kitchen and have been very pleased. As I have said earlier, it sometimes seems like lenght is a big issue unless it's a Carter. Testosterone? What matters in the end is that you are able to get the job done - and hopefully be comfy with what you use.

This is not a santoku but I think these videos illustrate my point:

This guy use what we all would call a ****** $20 knife:
http://youtu.be/qBZd933UUR8

And this guy got a nice looking "expensive" Mioroshi knife/sword ... doing the same task ... no offence theory!
http://youtu.be/Jhsj1d9SGwM

The guy with the small crappy knife obviously have better technique and can filet 3 whole salmons within 2 minutes (and video is not edited). The mioroshi handled 1 salmon in the same time (video is even edited). And who looks comfy and relaxed?

So to compare with the santoku vs other knifes: a santoku can be a great tool. A gyuto can be great if you like longer knifes, larger bellys etc. It's a personal preference and both will get the job done. Damn, I need to go buy another santoku :D
 
I like my santoku. There are a lot of things I use it for where a tip is not required and would get in the way. If I need to peel an orange, I reach over, open the drawer, and pull out a paring or petty knife. Presto chango, the "tip problem" is solved. If there's something that needs a longer knife, I get out the gyuto. Yes, a nakiri could possibly be a replacement for my santoku, but I don't have a nakiri. Maybe some day I'll get one and use it, too. For now I have a santoku, and it's enjoyable to use, holds a great edge, and is easy to sharpen.

Another point--seems like many of the posts say "I have a cheap-arse santoku and it's a piece of junk." Well, if you have a cheap-arse anything it's liable to be a piece of junk.

Some replies act like the santoku is going to be the only knife one is allowed to have in the kitchen. That's not the case for me, so I pull out whichever knife will perform the task at hand with the most comfort & ease, uses the least space and has the smallest amount of cleanup. A lot of the time the knife selected is the santoku.

If you don't like a santoku, don't get one. If you do like them, there's nothing wrong with that. Just find a knife that's comfortable to use, is well made, and keep it sharp.
 
Just sold the one I had - and ordered a brand new one ... can't wait for it to arrive :D
 
:plus1:

Lucretia said:
I like my santoku. There are a lot of things I use it for where a tip is not required and would get in the way. If I need to peel an orange, I reach over, open the drawer, and pull out a paring or petty knife. Presto chango, the "tip problem" is solved. If there's something that needs a longer knife, I get out the gyuto. Yes, a nakiri could possibly be a replacement for my santoku, but I don't have a nakiri. Maybe some day I'll get one and use it, too. For now I have a santoku, and it's enjoyable to use, holds a great edge, and is easy to sharpen.

Another point--seems like many of the posts say "I have a cheap-arse santoku and it's a piece of junk." Well, if you have a cheap-arse anything it's liable to be a piece of junk.

Some replies act like the santoku is going to be the only knife one is allowed to have in the kitchen. That's not the case for me, so I pull out whichever knife will perform the task at hand with the most comfort & ease, uses the least space and has the smallest amount of cleanup. A lot of the time the knife selected is the santoku.

If you don't like a santoku, don't get one. If you do like them, there's nothing wrong with that. Just find a knife that's comfortable to use, is well made, and keep it sharp.
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My most used knife in the kitchen now i Santoku, Nakiri and Petty. I have plenty of big knives but it seems to me just easier to reach for smaller knife.
 
Sounds like you're not a pro Maxim :ninja: ... small knifes :knifed: ... wait, I just ordered a 18 cm santoku myself - damn I guess I fall into your category too :whistling:
 
Hello Theory.

Can you provide any good academic citations that support your theory?

Thanks

ThEoRy said:
Kind of, but there's more to the story.

It was originally marketed towards young Japanese housewives around 1930s-1950ish when western food started becoming popular in Japan as the hip new western knife that was capable of handling meat, fish and veggies. Therefore three virtues. "Hey ladies, wanna be hip and cool and eat like like westerners? Then you need this new knife. You don't need specialized knives like deba, yanagiba and usuba anymore when this one knife does it all!!"

So there's actually 3 sets of "three virtues". Slice, dice, mince. Meat, fish, veg. And Deba, yanagi, usuba. This ************* knife has 9 ************* virtues yall! Buy this **** now!

What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.

All that being said, I have two santoku. Do I take them to work in my kit and use them? No.
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gadgetguy9000 said:
Hello Theory.

Can you provide any good academic citations that support your theory?

Thanks
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Dude, this is the internet...what's your theory?

Oh, and the Furi Rachael Ray 7" Edgy Santoku Knife is definitely the best santoku knife out there. :tease:
 
That JNS is a great looking Santoku. Jon's site JKI has some nice Santoku's. The Gesshin Uraku has a high thin behind the edge grind good blade for the price. A-Frames is another site for quality blades.

Can't say much as it's 11 pages long already lengthy. Just make a couple points, the Santoku design is a shorter version of more traditional Japanese cutters longer in length which are flatter & more drop nosed than western style . The Santoku is a hugely successful knife design. Not just because so many have been sold from crap to finest steels & grinds, most knife makers both Japanese & now even European have a few in their lineup. No matter if you are polarized how you feel about them, cannot argue their success.

To me a bad design is all those full heel bolsters, some very thick on western chef's knives. Makes heel sharpening impossible, over time screwing up the shape of the blade. I cannot believe they still make them soft steel, thick behind the edge, misguided tradition.

I just do not buy that the Santoku is a bad design. I can do certain types of tip work with a Santoku or Cleaver, Watch a skilled Chinese chef use the tip on a cleaver. There are certain prep jobs where a gyuto or petty works better. I would agree that a gyuto is a best all around blade. Putting out banquet's close to 40 years, almost 30 years totally hooked on Japanese knives Gyuto's, Sugi's & Yanagiba's. Never used a Santoku at work not because didn't like them didn't feel need for one. Did have a longer flatter Japanese carbon gyuto with more drop at the tip than most gyuto's loved that knife for massive amounts of prep work.

Now I am a old fart home cook have & use a Santoku.
 
keithsaltydog said:
That JNS is a great looking Santoku. Jon's site JKI has some nice Santoku's. The Gesshin Uraku has a high thin behind the edge grind good blade for the price. A-Frames is another site for quality blades.

Can't say much as it's 11 pages long already lengthy. Just make a couple points, the Santoku design is a shorter version of more traditional Japanese cutters longer in length which are flatter & more drop nosed than western style . The Santoku is a hugely successful knife design. Not just because so many have been sold from crap to finest steels & grinds, most knife makers both Japanese & now even European have a few in their lineup. No matter if you are polarized how you feel about them, cannot argue their success.

To me a bad design is all those full heel bolsters, some very thick on western chef's knives. Makes heel sharpening impossible, over time screwing up the shape of the blade. I cannot believe they still make them soft steel, thick behind the edge, misguided tradition.

I just do not buy that the Santoku is a bad design. I can do certain types of tip work with a Santoku or Cleaver, Watch a skilled Chinese chef use the tip on a cleaver. There are certain prep jobs where a gyuto or petty works better. I would agree that a gyuto is a best all around blade. Putting out banquet's close to 40 years, almost 30 years totally hooked on Japanese knives Gyuto's, Sugi's & Yanagiba's. Never used a Santoku at work not because didn't like them didn't feel need for one. Did have a longer flatter Japanese carbon gyuto with more drop at the tip than most gyuto's loved that knife for massive amounts of prep work.

Now I am a old fart home cook have & use a Santoku.
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To me a better question would be a santoku vs shorty gyuto or funayuki as they are the direct competition
 
Like Funayuki blades too. Some have the flatter profile, more board contact for forward push cuts and chopping. A lot less mainstream than Santoku's . Used Cleavers at work too. Still have several home cleavers.
 
A funayuki is a smaller, lighter, thinner deba - i.e. single bevel.

I can't help but think it's a term that been hijacked for marketing purposes, e.g. "funayuki gyuto", in the same manner that "kiritsuke" is increasingly (wrongly) used to describe a gyuto with a clipped tip.
 
Timthebeaver said:
A funayuki is a smaller, lighter, thinner deba - i.e. single bevel.

I can't help but think it's a term that been hijacked for marketing purposes, e.g. "funayuki gyuto", in the same manner that "kiritsuke" is increasingly (wrongly) used to describe a gyuto with a clipped tip.
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I would guess that Murray Carter is "responsible" for being first to use the name funayuki in the incorrect way (as he does with wabocho). But I can not help but admit that his funayuki knives rock and are extremely practical.
 
"Funayuki" is used in Japan for both the conventional single-bevel style and a less-conventional double-bevel style (mostly from Tosa but I've seen them from elsewhere too). Murray's use of it may not match what you read from Korin, but he is not the first or only to make double-bevel funayuki.
 
chinacats said:
Dude, this is the internet...what's your theory?
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My theory is that the internet is filled with people who make stuff up or form a belief based on something they read that was written by someone else who doesn't know anything, simply because it conforms to their a priori views on the subject. They then repeat the fiction, which is repeated by other like-minded people, and so on. When challenged, these people typically retreat to a defense based on some logical fallacy, usually an ad hominen attack, but an "appeal to authority", in this case. The authority is based on popularity or perhaps skill in an unrelated area in the present example. I realize this is the internet and we are in a wiki age where citation to verifiable sources is passé and where opinion and fact are interchangeable, but it is a shame because beginners come to a place like this to learn. Instead they become misinformed when people simply parrot some fiction they have read elsewhere.

As an aside, this is not a new phenomenon. Mapmakers often made maps based simply on other's maps. California was drawn as an island long after it was known not to be, due to this copy and repeat process.

I believe there is corollary here to Godwin’s Law. It seems that as an online discussion about Santokus grows longer, you are increasingly likely to find references to: (a) fear of points; and/or (b) Japanese housewives in some decade or other in the 20th century.

I wonder if these people believe that Steven Yan uses a cleaver because he fears a pointed knife.

The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki".
 
gadgetguy9000 said:
My theory is that the internet is filled with people who make stuff up or form a belief based on something they read that was written by someone else who doesn't know anything, simply because it conforms to their a priori views on the subject. They then repeat the fiction, which is repeated by other like-minded people, and so on. When challenged, these people typically retreat to a defense based on some logical fallacy, usually an ad hominen attack, but an "appeal to authority", in this case. The authority is based on popularity or perhaps skill in an unrelated area in the present example. I realize this is the internet and we are in a wiki age where citation to verifiable sources is passé and where opinion and fact are interchangeable, but it is a shame because beginners come to a place like this to learn. Instead they become misinformed when people simply parrot some fiction they have read elsewhere.

As an aside, this is not a new phenomenon. Mapmakers often made maps based simply on other's maps. California was drawn as an island long after it was known not to be, due to this copy and repeat process.

I believe there is corollary here to Godwin’s Law. It seems that as an online discussion about Santokus grows longer, you are increasingly likely to find references to: (a) fear of points; and/or (b) Japanese housewives in some decade or other in the 20th century.

I wonder if these people believe that Steven Yan uses a cleaver because he fears a pointed knife.

The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki".
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I pretty sure we all understand not to believe everything broadcast on the internet (no need to expound upon this), but you never answered the question.

So, what's your theory???

You came here to either provide a different answer or instigate an argument--where you going with this?
 
chinacats said:
I pretty sure we all understand not to believe everything broadcast on the internet (no need to expound upon this), but you never answered the question.

So, what's your theory???

You came here to either provide a different answer or instigate an argument--where you going with this?
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I think the point was rather reasonable. There are assertions of history (1930s marketing to women). I'm curious as well what statements like this are founded on. I do not think anyone is under obligation to posit alternate explanations in order to question the veracity of one guy's claims.
 
NP, but question with some reason. Do some research on your own if you are interested and either point out an opposing view or take what you read with a grain of salt. Rick likely knows more about knives than most, the fact that he hasn't done a dissertation on the subject is irrelevent. As clearly stated by gadgetguy9k that anything you read on the internet should be read as just that--internet sourced information. If you are looking for something backed by academic research then you are doing your search in the wrong part of the internet; I suggest you try *.edu.

Cheers
 
The thread is titled 'Is this the best Santoku knife?'

I wrote 'The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki".'

How is trying to understand or correct a statement instigating an argument? I find it strange that the propagation of misinformation is seen as a lesser sin than the questioning of it.

chinacats said:
So, what's your theory???
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Since you used three question marks, I will tell you my theory.

Over time, various knife shapes are experimented with. Variations on: more or less belly; more or less blade height; longer or shorter; more acute or less acute bevels; differing degrees of convexity, concavity, thickness; different steels; different hardnesses; and I am sure several other dimensions.

Knives referred to as Santokus can possess a wide range of combinations of these characteristics. However, out of all of the potential combinations of knife properties, for some reason the term "Santoku" seems to really bother a segment of the forum community. Different forums have different rates of hatred for the Santoku. It seems that if you call the knife something else, there is less hatred for it (see the mostly positive reactions to Takeda gyutos or banno bunkas, for example.)

It seems to me that Santokus share only two main physical characteristics. They tend to be 210mm or less in length and tend to be taller in profile. Since Santokus can possess a rather wide range of the remaining physical characteristics, more or less belly for example, to criticize them as a singular implement seems strange. The only remaining property that links the knives is the term "Santoku." Perhaps the hatred is simply misplaced distaste for Rachael Ray.
 
chinacats said:
NP, but question with some reason. Do some research and either point out an opposing view or take what you read with a grain of salt. Rick likely knows more about knives than most, the fact that he hasn't done a dissertation on the subject is irrelevent. As clearly stated by gadgetguy9k that anything you read on the internet should be read as just that--internet sourced information. If you are looking for something backed by academic research then you are doing your search in the wrong part of the internet; I suggest you try ???.edu.

Cheers
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Burden of proof is always on the claimant. I am under no obligation to try to dig around for obscure marketing literature, even if some of it might be available in Japanese in my country (Taiwan was Japanese-occupied during the mid-late Meiji). Besides the obvious sexism in many posts (I get the impression it's common among the cooks on these boards), there's no evidence offered that supports the claim that it was marketed to anyone in particular. I know many, many sources (many of which are blind copies as gadgetguy9000 mentioned) that say it grew quickly in popularity during the Meiji (no immediate source specifies precisely when) in part due to the introduction of gyuto and its marriage with the nakiri. I have not dug up anything of early manufacturer marketing that pushes it to anyone in particular, and I'd love to see some.

There is a lot of false expertise and not everyone has access to good information sources, and most people around here (including some very matter-of-fact voices) lack the language skill to read or even pronounce half the words they talk about, so how are they to challenge claims? To say one thinks santoku is a marketing gimmick word is one thing; to present a historical story about its origin with no support for details is quite another.
 
I like the shape, just not usually long enough...

:2cents:
 
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