J-Nat Club

[naader]

Or just stop at a maruo shiro suita, love the finish mine gives

They can be pretty coarse haha. Mine leaves a finish retty similar to aizu on iron but it fogs up core steel beautifully. Fantastic stone, i actually prefer coarser ones cause they make my progression work faster.

 

[Steve56]

I dont. I was referring to resetting the finish on a kiri.

I will use a Cho 3K occasionally if I want a new edge and I think it's enough to cut one, but then at a minimum Id be on an Aizu, Maruo Ao Suita, that sort of thing. I stopped using synth edges years and years ago because I simply found JNats to produce better results, more easily for me.

I have a bazillion natural stones these days, and a ton of them are suitas. I almost always use one of those, usually a harder/finer Ohira or an Okudo, or an Aiiwatani asagi that I'm quite fond of.

Ah, thanks, I was reading too fast and misunderstood. I’m playing with some polishing now and that’s useful info.

 

[jedy617]

They can be pretty coarse haha. Mine leaves a finish retty similar to aizu on iron but it fogs up core steel beautifully. Fantastic stone, i actually prefer coarser ones cause they make my progression work faster.

Oh interesting, mine is decently fine? Definitely finer than my aizu by quite a bit. I still don't have tons of comparisons being newer but I like it for a quick bright kasumi on knives.

 

[naader]

Oh interesting, mine is decently fine? Definitely finer than my aizu by quite a bit. I still don't have tons of comparisons being newer but I like it for a quick bright kasumi on knives.

Oh mine is also most definitely finer, it just leaves a more coarse appearing scratch pattern on iron. Soft kyoto stones that cut like that are typically rare gems, maruo being the exception. The scratch depth is shallow but the wide streaks are indicative of abrasive clusters cutting wider swaths of material. ugly finishers but great working stones.

 

[jedy617]

New stone to me, been wanting a sumingashi stone for awhile, so jumped on this okudo suita. It was from ebay, so who knows if it's a real okudo, however this was the first stone I bought where I was buying it primarily for aesthetic reasons, I guess that's how I know I am in deep. Regardless, extremely smooth, and fast polishing with a nice finish so that's good. If it's actually from a different mine, not a big deal to me.

Also, my other okudo suita I just got, it's from imanashi so I would assume that would make it real for sure. They both feel very similar, so a good sign. As a side note, anyone know the kanji for the stamps? I do recognize the honyama stamp up top:

 

[dabes]

New stone to me, been wanting a sumingashi stone for awhile, so jumped on this okudo suita. It was from ebay, so who knows if it's a real okudo, however this was the first stone I bought where I was buying it primarily for aesthetic reasons, I guess that's how I know I am in deep. Regardless, extremely smooth, and fast polishing with a nice finish so that's good. If it's actually from a different mine, not a big deal to me.

View attachment 253210
View attachment 253211


Also, my other okudo suita I just got, it's from imanashi so I would assume that would make it real for sure. They both feel very similar, so a good sign. As a side note, anyone know the kanji for the stamps? I do recognize the honyama stamp up top:

View attachment 253212

The 2nd stone says Nakayama in the top right

 

[jedy617]

The 2nd stone says Nakayama in the top right

Whoops, well I got a nakayama suita then lol. I might have a chat with the retailer. Regardless, must be a reasonably rare nakayama suita because it's not very hard at all, maybe a 3+. My other nakayama is very hard

 

[dragjp]

Nakayama + Suita (bottom left)

 

[jedy617]

Nakayama + Suita (bottom left)

Appreciate it! Guess no okudo for me

 

[lesslemming]

They can be pretty coarse haha. Mine leaves a finish retty similar to aizu on iron but it fogs up core steel beautifully. Fantastic stone, i actually prefer coarser ones cause they make my progression work faster.

I have heard it said before that Maruoyama Shiro Suita can be coarse, and I must say I have not encountered one of those. I had a lot of Maruoyama, among them three Shiro and two Shiro Nagura and all of them were nowhere near “coarse”.

To be sure, they are not razor material and don’t mirror polish the hagane like a Nakayama Awasedo might, but I always found they leave a fantastic compromise between mirror and haze. To be sure, my hard Maruoyama Ao Suita produces a brighter finish which is essentially a detailed mirror, but I do prefer the Shiro most of the time.

Especially with patience on slurry or with just water they polish fantastically

Both videos show progression: Shapton GS 2k, Maruoyama Shiro Suita Sunashi with Slurry and then with water only.
No oil or water on blade.

 

[user 16756]

Coarse is relative.

None of the Maruo suitas I have, shiro/ao/tamagoiro, finish at a level of refinement of ANY of the Ohira/Okudo/Shobu/Nakayama suitas I have owned have.

Dont get me wrong Im enthusiastic about them especially I think shiro suitas are amazing stones for beginners minus the prices but theyre soft and I agree with the claim they leave visible enough scratches to not really count as finishers, but instead are prefinishers.

 

[ethompson]

Yeah, coarse is relative here. In the same way people might talk about uchi as coarse.

 

[Luminaire]

Coarse is relative.

None of the Maruo suitas I have, shiro/ao/tamagoiro, finish at a level of refinement of ANY of the Ohira/Okudo/Shobu/Nakayama suitas I have owned have.

Dont get me wrong Im enthusiastic about them especially I think shiro suitas are amazing stones for beginners minus the prices but theyre soft and I agree with the claim they leave visible enough scratches to not really count as finishers, but instead are prefinishers.

Speaking of Maruo suitas. I got one as my second stone and am trying to figure out how much pressure to use. I keep reading that if you use heavy pressure it will generate nice mud to use to finish sharpening...isn't this counter productive and will likely round the edge because I'm using it as a finisher? Aren't finishers supposed to be light pressure? What's the proper pressure to use after a 4-6k synthetic?

 

[Heckel7302]

Speaking of Maruo suitas. I got one as my second stone and am trying to figure out how much pressure to use. I keep reading that if you use heavy pressure it will generate nice mud to use to finish sharpening...isn't this counter productive and will likely round the edge because I'm using it as a finisher? Aren't finishers supposed to be light pressure? What's the proper pressure to use after a 4-6k synthetic?

I think the heavy pressure comments are more around polishing than edge sharpening. As an edge finisher, you shouldn't need much pressure at all.

 

[user 16756]

If you're sharpening "properly" and thinning the bevel when you sharpen the edge, you can then use that mud to sharpen if you like. frankly you can use a plate and generate slurry if you want.

I dont personally and I dont think most people do. it will give you different results.

Im not sure I would ever use "heavy" pressure on a natural stone. use the least amount you feel like you can get away with and still polish the edge IMO.

 

[Luminaire]

Ok cool, I wasnt sure if I was doing jnats wrong. I typically just get a very thin dark-ish slurry.
I don't thin the bevel unless necessary because I dont want to ruin the finish...I seem to have a lot of knives with KU finishes.

 

[lesslemming]

Coarse is relative.

None of the Maruo suitas I have, shiro/ao/tamagoiro, finish at a level of refinement of ANY of the Ohira/Okudo/Shobu/Nakayama suitas I have owned have.

Dont get me wrong Im enthusiastic about them especially I think shiro suitas are amazing stones for beginners minus the prices but theyre soft and I agree with the claim they leave visible enough scratches to not really count as finishers, but instead are prefinishers.

I agree that coarseness as a concept is relative but the statement of having visible scratches is not. That is in fact what I wanted to dispute, hence my videos of a Maruoyama Shiro Suita finish.

For sure, there are stones that leave an even higher polish (brighter finish, more reflective), and a lot of stones *do* leave visible scratches (examples I encountered are Tsushima Nagura, and one very soft Uchi). My point is I have always been extremely hard-pressed to find *scratches* such as I understand them mentioned here, when my Maruoyama were used with proper care and preparation.

In the interest of this discussion:
Could I ask for a backwards progression, going from “scratch less” (Nakayama, Okudo, Ohira… doesn’t matter) back to being scratchy from a Maruoyama Shiro Suita?

Maybe I was just lucky enough to come across excellent specimen exclusively? Maybe we have different understandings of what are scratches and what a finish should be?

Please also feel free to tell me if you consider my examples shown to be acceptable as finish, or if you think it looks unfinished. And I do not mean this sarcastically!

 

[lesslemming]

Speaking of Maruo suitas. I got one as my second stone and am trying to figure out how much pressure to use. I keep reading that if you use heavy pressure it will generate nice mud to use to finish sharpening...isn't this counter productive and will likely round the edge because I'm using it as a finisher? Aren't finishers supposed to be light pressure? What's the proper pressure to use after a 4-6k synthetic?

Regarding pressure: that’s *really* relative, unfortunately.
However, maybe a metaphor can help.

For strictly edge sharpening, the limit to how much pressure makes sense is determined by the fragility of the edge, due to the extremely small bevel. The same rules as with synths apply for me with JNATs.

For polishing single bevels or kiridashi etc. (that is all the knives with very wide bevels) I like to think of pressure in three categories.

1. The bevel glides over the stone, as two smooth and lubricated surfaces would. This can help with final touches on a polisher and make the kasumi nice and especially when used with slurry.

2. The bevel is in firm contact with the surface of the stone. You can feel it making contact and “something is happening”. This I like to call the limit of the stone cutting and with medium soft and fast stones this usually comes with a little bit of auto slurry and/or black abrasion in the water. It usually takes not a lot of force and depending on how much slurry I allow to stay on the stone this either creates contrast (with slurry) or more detail (slurry removed frequently)

3. The bevel is pressed on the surface using your fingers. Again, usually this does not take knuckle whitening force, but sometimes you’ll have to be firm. This is usually accompanied by either copious amounts of slurry or dark black streaks on the stone (when it’s embedded in the stone itself and can not be washed off, that’s glazing). This can be useful for burnishing on hard stones. My Ao Suita likes this and polishes like crazy but there is a risk of producing additional scratches from the steel catching the stone.
Technically, this much pressure could be used to create slurry quickly on soft stones but there are WAY better methods of doing so.

Besides the pressure and slurry / water management I find the most determining factors for a given stone to be preparation of bevel and the preparation of the stone surface itself (rough stone finish vs smoothened stone)

 

[KenjiF]

Compared to an uchi would you rate it finer or coarser generally?

 

[jedy617]

Mine is finer

 

[lesslemming]

Compared to an uchi would you rate it finer or coarser generally?

Mine is also finer. Had only a few Uchi, so not a huge sample size, but still I would confirm: very similar but finer. In my experience I would pick a Maruoyama any day of the week.

Of course that’s a spectrum, though, and Uchi are known to vary.

Thinking about it… almost my entire experience with Maruoyama Shiro Suita refers to either stamped as Sunashi or being practically Sunashi. Maybe the non-Sunashi are coarser?

Just a thought, not an observation

 

[KenjiF]

Mine is also finer. Had only a few Uchi, so not a huge sample size, but still I would confirm: very similar but finer. In my experience I would pick a Maruoyama any day of the week.

Of course that’s a spectrum, though, and Uchi are known to vary.

Thinking about it… almost my entire experience with Maruoyama Shiro Suita refers to either stamped as Sunashi or being practically Sunashi. Maybe the non-Sunashi are coarser?

Just a thought, not an observation

Thanks! I got a mystery suita that Watanabe thought was a MSS and it’s coarser than my ohira uchi and faster.

 

[user 16756]

Got a new stone.

This one is marked "Choshiro" / "長四郎", potentially referring to one Choshiro Minami though I can't find a ton of info, and Tenjou, so yeah it's probably a tenjou suita.

That said, this thing is quite hard for that, it's only a tiny bit less hard/fine than my finest Ohira suita. It's also fast with a very nice feel, lots of little suspended bits of black in the water pretty quickly. Interestingly enough despite the visible inclusions, none can be felt.

Usually I'm kind of skeptical about stones that look like this but I was drinking and it wasn't super pricey. The stone doesnt feel/perform like it looks, it's actually kind of a winner despite it all.

 

[dragjp]

AFAIK 長四郎 is a mountain/miner brand in Shoubudani area that produces suitas in early ages.

 

[jedy617]

This is a nice one I got. An ohira suita with lots of nice renge. Sharpens up super quick, and looks good doing it. Only thing is that it's a thin guy, about 20mm. But what are you gonna do.

 

[lesslemming]

looks like a silky smooth finish. Excellent looking stone, too. *jealous noises*

This is a nice one I got. An ohira suita with lots of nice renge. Sharpens up super quick, and looks good doing it. Only thing is that it's a thin guy, about 20mm. But what are you gonna do.

View attachment 254388
View attachment 254389

 

[user 16756]

This is a nice one I got. An ohira suita with lots of nice renge. Sharpens up super quick, and looks good doing it. Only thing is that it's a thin guy, about 20mm. But what are you gonna do.

View attachment 254388
View attachment 254389

that looks like it may just be sitting on your holder?

my suggestion is that if you have a thin stone you like go buy a Nanohone plate (they sell them with no stone attached) and the thicker bonding material. I have two smaller stones which have the sort of hairline cracks which can lead to bigger cracks mounted on the plates and it is totally worth it just in case.

you will want to flatten the bottom of the stone though or fill it in with epoxy so that you have FULL contact with the plate giving support to the stone.

 

[jedy617]

that looks like it may just be sitting on your holder?

my suggestion is that if you have a thin stone you like go buy a Nanohone plate (they sell them with no stone attached) and the thicker bonding material. I have two smaller stones which have the sort of hairline cracks which can lead to bigger cracks mounted on the plates and it is totally worth it just in case.

you will want to flatten the bottom of the stone though or fill it in with epoxy so that you have FULL contact with the plate giving support to the stone.

Good advice, thanks

 

[KenjiF]

This is a nice one I got. An ohira suita with lots of nice renge. Sharpens up super quick, and looks good doing it. Only thing is that it's a thin guy, about 20mm. But what are you gonna do.

View attachment 254388
View attachment 254389

That looks like a beauty! Congrats

 

[simona]

Regarding pressure: that’s *really* relative, unfortunately.
However, maybe a metaphor can help.

For strictly edge sharpening, the limit to how much pressure makes sense is determined by the fragility of the edge, due to the extremely small bevel. The same rules as with synths apply for me with JNATs.

For polishing single bevels or kiridashi etc. (that is all the knives with very wide bevels) I like to think of pressure in three categories.

1. The bevel glides over the stone, as two smooth and lubricated surfaces would. This can help with final touches on a polisher and make the kasumi nice and especially when used with slurry.

2. The bevel is in firm contact with the surface of the stone. You can feel it making contact and “something is happening”. This I like to call the limit of the stone cutting and with medium soft and fast stones this usually comes with a little bit of auto slurry and/or black abrasion in the water. It usually takes not a lot of force and depending on how much slurry I allow to stay on the stone this either creates contrast (with slurry) or more detail (slurry removed frequently)

3. The bevel is pressed on the surface using your fingers. Again, usually this does not take knuckle whitening force, but sometimes you’ll have to be firm. This is usually accompanied by either copious amounts of slurry or dark black streaks on the stone (when it’s embedded in the stone itself and can not be washed off, that’s glazing). This can be useful for burnishing on hard stones. My Ao Suita likes this and polishes like crazy but there is a risk of producing additional scratches from the steel catching the stone.
Technically, this much pressure could be used to create slurry quickly on soft stones but there are WAY better methods of doing so.

Besides the pressure and slurry / water management I find the most determining factors for a given stone to be preparation of bevel and the preparation of the stone surface itself (rough stone finish vs smoothened stone)

Great description - thanks for that. Near newbie here, so bear with me; "It usually takes not a lot of force and depending on how much slurry I allow to stay on the stone this either creates contrast (with slurry) or more detail (slurry removed frequently)"
I understand the slurry vs. no slurry, but could you elaborate on the contrast vs. detail. Am I understanding 'detail' as low contrast vs. high contrast?
Thanks.