So sounds like there were issues with the final product did the 225s turnout good. I know there was a sample awhile back. Looks great and really wish I had gotten lucky in the lotto. But I am really happy with my Shihan version.
KKF Massdrop IV - 田中義一 🇯🇵
- Thread starter nakiriknaifuwaifu
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Beauty queens for sure, some nice blue patina will be next level!
Would be awesome to see a little more height and weight on the 225s - somewhere closer to a FM big brother vs. better looking twin!
Agree
%
Corradobrit1
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Stop it. You're making me feel little better.
Hahaha, I’ll still be smiling ear to ear the day this arrives and the carrot finally stops tangling. Plenty of WH options to choose from out there.
I’m sure this carve out a spot on the varsity squad wherever it lands.
IMakeOnionsCry
Well-Known Member
First of all, thank you for making me feel better. Maybe I misread this thread but I thought these knives were supposed to be more Kaiju and Less FM. Either way I’m sure everyone will be happy with thier knives and not miss a beat in making me want one.
I’ll still be on the strata website trying to buy their leftovers, but even with Apple Pay and what not I can’t seem to win these check out races.
Knife looks amazing though.
Aaaarrrrhhhhhhhh!
Man, those look awesome
nakiriknaifuwaifu
Senior Member
@Smashmasta and I had a chance to touch base on logistics this week - more info to come!
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Argh. Sorry I missed the Tanaka/Myojin/Strata lottery! When's the next lottery drawing?
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Hey everyone!
So nice to be here, I hope everyone has been well.
First, let me thank all of you for your continued interest, and especially your patience. Obviously we were hoping for a quicker turnaround, but alas, the mechanisms that turn the gears of handmade production have been gunked up due to a multitude of reasons, namely volume of other orders and intentional small production. We all know these makers are insanely busy, so I'm going to move past this obvious factor until later.
After speaking with Daisuke from Sakai Kikumori, Tanaka, and Myojin, we decided to take it slow at first, ie. only make a few at a time in order to receive feedback from users and adjust accordingly. For instance, we have already provided feedback about the short heel height on the 240mm, the edge profile of the 270mm, and the overall thinness of both sizes.
There may be one more batch of 2-3 knives with the same initial designs that we just saw, but moving forward the thickness is going to start around 5mm-6mm for the 240mm, and 6mm-7mm+ on the 270mm, with strong distal tapers and solid convexity. Heel heights will start at 53mm+ for the 240mm. But as always, allow for some variance - the Sakai makers' muscle memories generally lead them to thinner and shorter blades due to their rote repetition of the classic smaller/short Sakai dimensions they are accustomed to.
So to answer some comments - these will (eventually) be more Kaiju than FM, but less with trying to overly imitate those designs and more being inspired by them.
Besides the measurements, Daisuke and I have been talking to Myojin about possible finishes. For the initial batch, the blades were etched in a more standard Ferric Chloride solution, which often provides blacks and dark grays. The finish before the etching was rather mid grit, visible but without being an eyesore. Of the 2 blades that Myojin currently has, I have requested that one be sent to me in a state that is right before etching in the ferric. I think Myojin did a really good job with the ferric, as the IG post reveals, but I am interested in experimenting with a rather diluted muriatic acid-based solution at a slightly higher polish. I have found that such a combination can bring about a bit more blues and varied colors in general, and often provides greater distinction and depth among the "layers" in the wrought iron. But every blade is different from the last, so who really knows - only one way to find out.
We also discussed with Myojin the aim for a strong distal taper, which are less than standard on most Sakai-made blades. Sakai-born blades are certainly not a chunky, uniform thickness like mass produced, blank-cut Seki-made blades, but they are also not distal prevalent like Sanjo-made tapers either. Given the aforementioned thickness changes, a distal taper is basically required so as to not make the blade a Guts-prefered Berserker-level chunk of metal, but we will see about the fluid consistency of well executed distal taper; the challenge is on for Myojin.
Some other things to pass along:
- Tanaka mentioned it was some of the best wrought iron (WI) he has worked with, with it being much harder and consistent throughout than most WI he has worked with in the past, which is a relief given I spent a bunch of time reading around about WI. My quest for consistent, high-quality wrought iron led me to Topp and Co. in England. They do ironwork for some of the most prestigious and historically significant buildings, palaces, parks, etc. Not only is their work impressive, they are also one of the only producers of re-rolled, genuine wrought iron in the world (technically their subsidiary, 'The Real Wrought Iron Company,' makes it). Basically, they purchase/source/forage the best quality wrought iron and melt it down, mix it up, and freshly roll it into uniform bar stock, all supported by the same quality control they use for their famous works.
However, it is important to note that there is WAY MORE to WI than most people know. I will try to summarize things and not get too technical because I myself am not a metallurgist and I do not want to write incorrect information (so please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). A lot of people think WI just means “old metal” or something dismissively general like that (as did I before I read all sh*t), and of which you can find anywhere if you look hard enough. In reality there is waaaaay more to it than that. WI has an actual metallurgical definition as a result of its production method. It is true, however, that WI is generally old since no one really makes it anymore given how much more efficient and better quality modern day production methods are at creating steel - the metal that replaced wrought iron as the most ubiquitous metallic product in the world.
“Wrought” means “to work” in the sense of manual (mostly) hand hammering the iron vs. casting, for example. When casting, the iron is heated up until it is molten. With such heat the impurities are molecularly integrated into the iron, they become “part of” the iron (or resulting steel), and/or are burnt off, or removed manually as they naturally work their way to the surface from the iron. The way cast iron cools, and the amount of carbon it has, yields a very hard product but one that is also brittle and cannot be worked cold or hot. Basically once you cast something, it is that forever.
Just like not all steels are the same quality, nor smiths and sharpeners, etc., not all WI is the same quality. WI, especially salvaged "raw" WI can contain impurities like phosphorus and silicon threatening the integrity of the metallurgical structure in a variety of possible ways, or the iron object could have pockets of fully rusted-out bits, filled with sand/dirt, or even contain too much carbon making the iron overall too brittle, or too brittle in certain sections. That is not at all to say all foraged and directly worked WI is of poor quality, in fact many of us have seen the sheer beauty that all sorts of WI sources can provide. But it is helpful to know that there are different levels of quality WI, as much as 6 or 8 levels depending on who/when/where - after all, WI was the most common form of worked iron and was used as the primary source of metal in innumerable applications for centuries until more modern methods of production of mild steel took over in the mid 1800s, such as the Bessemer Process.
WI is also special because it is the only form of iron that contains a particular type of slag (more on that later), and WI has the highest melting point of all iron types (in part due to the slag). During the refining process, the WI is heated to a white heat, but not made molten like cast iron. Since the solid is not turned into a liquid, the impurities are not “absorbed” into the iron itself like molten cast iron, but the slag and the iron solidify independently of each other which yields a different material content, and thus different corrosion properties than other types of iron, much better corrosion properties in fact. Counterintuitively, quality WI is largely determined by the content and distribution of its “impurities,” which unlike impurities in steel, are in physical contrast with the iron rather than “bonded” in a molecular/atomic way as previously mentioned. It is precisely these impurities that give WI its unique aesthetic, corrosion resistance, and workable properties. The almost Damascus-like patterns you see are literally the visualization of the physical contrast between the iron and impurities, then iron, then impurities, then iron, then impurities, and so on. Pretty wacky stuff.
Anyways…
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk about WI.
Moving on…
The handles are gorgeous rosewood and blonde horn from Joe Morrone at Sugi Cutlery/Jobone. They are really well made, with crisp bevel changes, flush joints, high chatoyance, and buttery smooth fastening. Happy to have his work tie it all together.
Yes, Strata will set aside a TBD number of blades and offer a small, second lottery for those who contact us (I do not have a list of people who did not get picked who entered the first lottery, so if you want to be in this smaller lottery you must contact us at [email protected]. Given the slow and low production, we do not know when we will pull names, or if we will do it all at once, or when we get our allotment one by one. Patience is required.
To retouch on production - we are hoping to get 2-3 knives/month but it could be less or it could be more. Given we may be adjusting things each batch, the production is slower. Since Tanaka has to forge weld the wrought iron to the core, the production is slower. Since we are having a custom etch job, production is slower. Since these are some of the busiest, most sought after craftsmen, production is slower because they have so many orders. My hope is that when we feel we have dialed in everything, we can get Tanaka to make larger batches. Knife production always bottlenecks at the sharpening stage, so Myojin may very well have numerous rough forged blades ready for sharpening that he simply cannot get to until he’s done with his other orders. Both Daisuke and the craftsmen were cautiously optimistic about getting these done months ago, but alas, best laid plans and all that.
Again, thanks to everyone here for their support, thanks to @nakiriknaifuwaifu and @RockyBasel for their efforts in organizing the mass drop. Strata is humbled by the energy and excitement everyone has been showing. It is way too early to say anything now, but Strata has more fun projects planned, so stay tuned for those.
- Best,
Evan
So nice to be here, I hope everyone has been well.
First, let me thank all of you for your continued interest, and especially your patience. Obviously we were hoping for a quicker turnaround, but alas, the mechanisms that turn the gears of handmade production have been gunked up due to a multitude of reasons, namely volume of other orders and intentional small production. We all know these makers are insanely busy, so I'm going to move past this obvious factor until later.
After speaking with Daisuke from Sakai Kikumori, Tanaka, and Myojin, we decided to take it slow at first, ie. only make a few at a time in order to receive feedback from users and adjust accordingly. For instance, we have already provided feedback about the short heel height on the 240mm, the edge profile of the 270mm, and the overall thinness of both sizes.
There may be one more batch of 2-3 knives with the same initial designs that we just saw, but moving forward the thickness is going to start around 5mm-6mm for the 240mm, and 6mm-7mm+ on the 270mm, with strong distal tapers and solid convexity. Heel heights will start at 53mm+ for the 240mm. But as always, allow for some variance - the Sakai makers' muscle memories generally lead them to thinner and shorter blades due to their rote repetition of the classic smaller/short Sakai dimensions they are accustomed to.
So to answer some comments - these will (eventually) be more Kaiju than FM, but less with trying to overly imitate those designs and more being inspired by them.
Besides the measurements, Daisuke and I have been talking to Myojin about possible finishes. For the initial batch, the blades were etched in a more standard Ferric Chloride solution, which often provides blacks and dark grays. The finish before the etching was rather mid grit, visible but without being an eyesore. Of the 2 blades that Myojin currently has, I have requested that one be sent to me in a state that is right before etching in the ferric. I think Myojin did a really good job with the ferric, as the IG post reveals, but I am interested in experimenting with a rather diluted muriatic acid-based solution at a slightly higher polish. I have found that such a combination can bring about a bit more blues and varied colors in general, and often provides greater distinction and depth among the "layers" in the wrought iron. But every blade is different from the last, so who really knows - only one way to find out.
We also discussed with Myojin the aim for a strong distal taper, which are less than standard on most Sakai-made blades. Sakai-born blades are certainly not a chunky, uniform thickness like mass produced, blank-cut Seki-made blades, but they are also not distal prevalent like Sanjo-made tapers either. Given the aforementioned thickness changes, a distal taper is basically required so as to not make the blade a Guts-prefered Berserker-level chunk of metal, but we will see about the fluid consistency of well executed distal taper; the challenge is on for Myojin.
Some other things to pass along:
- Tanaka mentioned it was some of the best wrought iron (WI) he has worked with, with it being much harder and consistent throughout than most WI he has worked with in the past, which is a relief given I spent a bunch of time reading around about WI. My quest for consistent, high-quality wrought iron led me to Topp and Co. in England. They do ironwork for some of the most prestigious and historically significant buildings, palaces, parks, etc. Not only is their work impressive, they are also one of the only producers of re-rolled, genuine wrought iron in the world (technically their subsidiary, 'The Real Wrought Iron Company,' makes it). Basically, they purchase/source/forage the best quality wrought iron and melt it down, mix it up, and freshly roll it into uniform bar stock, all supported by the same quality control they use for their famous works.
However, it is important to note that there is WAY MORE to WI than most people know. I will try to summarize things and not get too technical because I myself am not a metallurgist and I do not want to write incorrect information (so please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). A lot of people think WI just means “old metal” or something dismissively general like that (as did I before I read all sh*t), and of which you can find anywhere if you look hard enough. In reality there is waaaaay more to it than that. WI has an actual metallurgical definition as a result of its production method. It is true, however, that WI is generally old since no one really makes it anymore given how much more efficient and better quality modern day production methods are at creating steel - the metal that replaced wrought iron as the most ubiquitous metallic product in the world.
“Wrought” means “to work” in the sense of manual (mostly) hand hammering the iron vs. casting, for example. When casting, the iron is heated up until it is molten. With such heat the impurities are molecularly integrated into the iron, they become “part of” the iron (or resulting steel), and/or are burnt off, or removed manually as they naturally work their way to the surface from the iron. The way cast iron cools, and the amount of carbon it has, yields a very hard product but one that is also brittle and cannot be worked cold or hot. Basically once you cast something, it is that forever.
Just like not all steels are the same quality, nor smiths and sharpeners, etc., not all WI is the same quality. WI, especially salvaged "raw" WI can contain impurities like phosphorus and silicon threatening the integrity of the metallurgical structure in a variety of possible ways, or the iron object could have pockets of fully rusted-out bits, filled with sand/dirt, or even contain too much carbon making the iron overall too brittle, or too brittle in certain sections. That is not at all to say all foraged and directly worked WI is of poor quality, in fact many of us have seen the sheer beauty that all sorts of WI sources can provide. But it is helpful to know that there are different levels of quality WI, as much as 6 or 8 levels depending on who/when/where - after all, WI was the most common form of worked iron and was used as the primary source of metal in innumerable applications for centuries until more modern methods of production of mild steel took over in the mid 1800s, such as the Bessemer Process.
WI is also special because it is the only form of iron that contains a particular type of slag (more on that later), and WI has the highest melting point of all iron types (in part due to the slag). During the refining process, the WI is heated to a white heat, but not made molten like cast iron. Since the solid is not turned into a liquid, the impurities are not “absorbed” into the iron itself like molten cast iron, but the slag and the iron solidify independently of each other which yields a different material content, and thus different corrosion properties than other types of iron, much better corrosion properties in fact. Counterintuitively, quality WI is largely determined by the content and distribution of its “impurities,” which unlike impurities in steel, are in physical contrast with the iron rather than “bonded” in a molecular/atomic way as previously mentioned. It is precisely these impurities that give WI its unique aesthetic, corrosion resistance, and workable properties. The almost Damascus-like patterns you see are literally the visualization of the physical contrast between the iron and impurities, then iron, then impurities, then iron, then impurities, and so on. Pretty wacky stuff.
Anyways…
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk about WI.
Moving on…
The handles are gorgeous rosewood and blonde horn from Joe Morrone at Sugi Cutlery/Jobone. They are really well made, with crisp bevel changes, flush joints, high chatoyance, and buttery smooth fastening. Happy to have his work tie it all together.
Yes, Strata will set aside a TBD number of blades and offer a small, second lottery for those who contact us (I do not have a list of people who did not get picked who entered the first lottery, so if you want to be in this smaller lottery you must contact us at [email protected]. Given the slow and low production, we do not know when we will pull names, or if we will do it all at once, or when we get our allotment one by one. Patience is required.
To retouch on production - we are hoping to get 2-3 knives/month but it could be less or it could be more. Given we may be adjusting things each batch, the production is slower. Since Tanaka has to forge weld the wrought iron to the core, the production is slower. Since we are having a custom etch job, production is slower. Since these are some of the busiest, most sought after craftsmen, production is slower because they have so many orders. My hope is that when we feel we have dialed in everything, we can get Tanaka to make larger batches. Knife production always bottlenecks at the sharpening stage, so Myojin may very well have numerous rough forged blades ready for sharpening that he simply cannot get to until he’s done with his other orders. Both Daisuke and the craftsmen were cautiously optimistic about getting these done months ago, but alas, best laid plans and all that.
Again, thanks to everyone here for their support, thanks to @nakiriknaifuwaifu and @RockyBasel for their efforts in organizing the mass drop. Strata is humbled by the energy and excitement everyone has been showing. It is way too early to say anything now, but Strata has more fun projects planned, so stay tuned for those.
- Best,
Evan
Thank you so much for the write-up and update, Evan! I'm sure most of us here don't mind a longer wait if it evens a better product in the end. I'm curious to know who the early testers for the first round of knives were.
@Smashmasta Thank you so so much for the detailed update on all of this…
Everything you said is of much comfort!
(Not trying to flex at all!) being one of the first chosen for this project I had a bunch of questions and almost all were answered in this post so that is hugely appreciated.
As far as changes go… the thicker, less etched finished and higher heel height are ALL exactly what I myself was picturing when I signed up for the project in the first place (and I’m know I’m not alone).
We will continue to be patient and understanding of the fact that this is a very complex operation that must go through a ton of hands.
Again, thank you SO much for the big update. I cannot wait to finally get my hands on this project!
Ps. And as far as handles go, I was very pleased with Joe’s ironwood/blonde ferrule! He does incredible work and I think it compliments the blade beautifully
Everything you said is of much comfort!
(Not trying to flex at all!) being one of the first chosen for this project I had a bunch of questions and almost all were answered in this post so that is hugely appreciated.
As far as changes go… the thicker, less etched finished and higher heel height are ALL exactly what I myself was picturing when I signed up for the project in the first place (and I’m know I’m not alone).
We will continue to be patient and understanding of the fact that this is a very complex operation that must go through a ton of hands.
Again, thank you SO much for the big update. I cannot wait to finally get my hands on this project!
Ps. And as far as handles go, I was very pleased with Joe’s ironwood/blonde ferrule! He does incredible work and I think it compliments the blade beautifully
Same@Smashmasta Thank you so so much for the detailed update on all of this…
Everything you said is of much comfort!
(Not trying to flex at all!) being one of the first chosen for this project I had a bunch of questions and almost all were answered in this post so that is hugely appreciated.
As far as changes go… the thicker, less etched finished and higher heel height are ALL exactly what I myself was picturing when I signed up for the project in the first place (and I’m know I’m not alone).
We will continue to be patient and understanding of the fact that this is a very complex operation that must go through a ton of hands.
Again, thank you SO much for the big update. I cannot wait to finally get my hands on this project!
Ps. And as far as handles go, I was very pleased with Joe’s ironwood/blonde ferrule! He does incredible work and I think it compliments the blade beautifully
well said
Hey Evan @Smashmasta - really appreciate the detailed update and great to hear that you're working iteratively with Tanaka and Myojin to dial in the specs and realize the original vision!
Damn these sound amazing! Late to the party so will have to look in BST for a catch and release!
Strata is going to release some extras to the public after the massdrop, tho that could be well over 2 years from now. And honestly I don't think it's worth it, let me take the loss and test them.
Pretty sure they are going to do a lottery for the extras.
MowgFace
Senior Member
Ok I'm in
If I have to keep tangling my carrot much longer it'll turn into one of those fancy purple ones you find at the farmers market
nakiriknaifuwaifu
Senior Member
Sorry, deleted per OPs request
msg me instead with any questions or responses, but not here
Thank you,
Eric
msg me instead with any questions or responses, but not here
Thank you,
Eric
Last edited:
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People's Carrot...leaves....turning blue?
I emailed Strata to be notified about either the lottery or the sale. Was this the correct way or do I need to send a DM here?
That is the correct way. Message them directly.
