Knife Performance Contest

[jgraeff]

I suggest any knife supplied by the competitors must be "factory" ground. No aftermarket work done whatsoever. No thinning behind the edge or any other geometry alteration.

i would agree with this.

 

[Crothcipt]

Um are not Japanese knife makers famous for sending non sharpened knives? How about sharpened by a 3rd party, doesn't have to be, lets say John. Or somebody else known for sharpening here.

 

[EdipisReks]

I suggest any knife supplied by the competitors must be "factory" ground. No aftermarket work done whatsoever. No thinning behind the edge or any other geometry alteration.

that just isn't going to work, with a lot of Japanese knives.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

All good ideas folks, thanks for chiming in.

I am pretty flexible, so whatever is worth to adopt from this thread, I will.

M

 

[cookinstuff]

I think this is a great idea, but not sure, I think it should be sharpened by 3rd party person. A new kato or shig factory ground will turn into a chipping machine in a pro kitchen on a day of varied prep on poly boards. I am looking forward to the outcome of this, Marko you are the man for participating in this.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I know a person in Norway who is a very good sharpener. I can easily trust him with my knives. He could prepare both knives for a pro kitchen duty, even it it implies putting micro-bevels on Shig or Kato.

I am pretty flexible as long as this happens.

M

 

[Birnando]

This contest will be fun to watch play out.

I have no personal gain from whatever the outcome, nor any pride towards a result not favoring my selected knife.
Well, I guess one thing that will be a bonus for me is to actually loose.
That will open up a whole new market for me to explore and possibly dive into.
A market I have thus far ignored and even ridiculed privately.
Once a knife-nut, always a knife-nut

As to the value of it, I think it is safe to say that it cannot be drawn a lot of decisive conclusions from it.
Personal preferences will be the decider here, and that is pretty much it.
Attitudes towards grind, level of sharpness, cutting technique, reactivity and all the other usual culprits will be a large part of the outcome.

All the same, I look forward to it, and will deliver a knife that I think will be considered a very good tool by most any user.
Be that a pro, a home-cook or anything in between.

As to what knife I will pick, that is something I am still considering.
A Kato prototype has been proposed, accepted and seems likely, but in order for the two knives to bested fairly, they should probably be unknowns to each other up until the contest/testing begins.
Whatever knife is selected though, one of the obvious differences either way will be the fact that all my knives are made for left handed use.
From what I understand, Marko will supply a knife that caters to both lefties and all those other phreaks

Oh, and for the record:
The Norwegian guy who will be honing the two knives, is someone I have never met, nor spoken to.

 

[ThEoRy]

that just isn't going to work, with a lot of Japanese knives.

Why not? I'm not talking about the factory sharpening. I'm talking about the grind.

 

[Birnando]

I suggest any knife supplied by the competitors must be "factory" ground. No aftermarket work done whatsoever. No thinning behind the edge or any other geometry alteration.

While I do see your point regarding this, I am afraid I must dissappoint you in this area.
I do enjoy knives and all, but my collection of non-sharpened and unused knives in this price range is eeh, quite limited..
I could always order a new one I guess, but that would kinda put a sock in this little experiment for what?, 9-12 months or even more.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

This is Gettin Good!

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

A friendly competition, I would add.

 

[Birnando]

A friendly competition, I would add.

I will second that.
This is gonna be a fun thing, and I truly believe there will be stuff to learn here, regardless of all the un-scientific parameters on such a small test.

 

[ThEoRy]

While I do see your point regarding this, I am afraid I must dissappoint you in this area.
I do enjoy knives and all, but my collection of non-sharpened and unused knives in this price range is eeh, quite limited..
I could always order a new one I guess, but that would kinda put a sock in this little experiment for what?, 9-12 months or even more.

I'm not talking about sharpening, I'm talking about aftermarket performance upgrades like thinning or reprofiling. You can't take say a Kato or Shig and do major thinning behind the edge and then enter it as a Japanese makers finished product because it's now been altered. This defeats the entire purpose of the contest doesn't it?

Tell ya what, let's have a race.
We'll both use cars of a similar cost or performance range. But, I'll then upgrade the intake, headers, exhaust, add racing tires, strip out all the excess weight and put a performance tune on it. Are you still racing the same car as the manufacturer intended?

 

[Crothcipt]

Theory, it's more like having two of the same cars. Both with all upgrades you describe(ie Corvette vs. the Mustang debate) but one has no tires.

 

[jayhay]

You need more than one tester. Otherwise you have a data set of one.

-AJ

I agree with this. One doesn't mean much.

 

[Birnando]

I agree with this. One doesn't mean much.

There will be 3

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

There will be 3

Yes, multiple testers.

WIP on the knife will be forthcoming.

M

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

...The Kato is already made. It is known for shape style, and i'm sure a kanji. The only way this could be taken care of would be for Marko to make the exact knife. I don't think that is achievable, and if it would be I wouldn't think Marko would do it.

Be careful what you wish.

Is there an interest for a 240-270mm Kato clone in 52100? I have stock 4.75mm thick that is close enough to Kato's 5.75mm on 270mm (probably even closer to 240mm). I could also get thicker stock from Aldo.

Geometry 1:1, profile - maybe tweaked a little bit, finish - hand rubbed, handle D or octagonal (this would a pitch grip held knife because of the weight), saya. Hardness 62-63RC. It would be heat treated for maximum wear resistance, sharpness and edge toughness (resistance to chipping).

This is not a geometry I would choose for my knives, or send one for competition but as an exercise, I am a game. Might even keep a prototype for myself for specific cuttings tasks.

This is an easier knife for me to make than ones I make now.

Thoughts?

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Be careful what you wish.

Is there an interest for a 240-270mm Kato clone in 52100? I have stock 4.75mm thick that is close enough to Kato's 5.75mm on 270mm (probably even closer to 240mm). I could also get thicker stock from Aldo.

Geometry 1:1, profile - maybe tweaked a little bit, finish - hand rubbed, handle D or octagonal (this would a pitch grip held knife because of the weight), saya. Hardness 62-63RC. It would be heat treated for maximum wear resistance, sharpness and edge toughness (resistance to chipping).

This is not a geometry I would choose for my knives, or send one for competition but as an exercise, I am a game. Might even keep a prototype for myself for specific cuttings tasks.

This is an easier knife for me to make than ones I make now.

Thoughts?

I will make one just for the hell of it.

 

[mano]

Just as is the case with professional testers of cars and other things where complete double blind assessment is impossible, I'm pretty sure we have at least three people here who have the skills, experience, integrity and objective nature to test. Salty (once he's set free), Mattrud, Theory and Son come to mind.

They may prefer certain geometry and profile, but they'll separate out the subjective from the objective issues brought up in the original Japanocentric thread.

 

[markenki]

Be careful what you wish.

Is there an interest for a 240-270mm Kato clone in 52100? I have stock 4.75mm thick that is close enough to Kato's 5.75mm on 270mm (probably even closer to 240mm). I could also get thicker stock from Aldo.

Geometry 1:1, profile - maybe tweaked a little bit, finish - hand rubbed, handle D or octagonal (this would a pitch grip held knife because of the weight), saya. Hardness 62-63RC. It would be heat treated for maximum wear resistance, sharpness and edge toughness (resistance to chipping).

This is not a geometry I would choose for my knives, or send one for competition but as an exercise, I am a game. Might even keep a prototype for myself for specific cuttings tasks.

This is an easier knife for me to make than ones I make now.

Thoughts?

I'd love to see it.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Actually, after giving it thought, I decided against 1:1 copy. 270mm Kato is a massive knife - 5.35mm over the heel, convex ground, 300g (probably 275g without a handle). At that thickness, it is guaranteed to wedge on anything denser than a carrot in the heel area and perhaps even in the mid area. To push it through the dense stuff like root vegetables, one would have to apply a considerable pressure - pushing the blade through a half of sweet potato required more than 7lb of pressure (limits on my kitchen scale).

Instead, I would like to solicit some input from Kato users and try to come up with a tweak to existing geometry that would improve the knife heel performance while retaining the current characteristics that make this knife desirable. Two things are going for it - weight and geometry, however, the thick geometry over the heel makes it less than optimal performer.

I think profile could also be tweaked a little bit.

I am going to start a new thread where I will ask Kato users questions to get an idea how they use the knife, what it excels or sucks at cutting, etc, to get a better understanding. Based on the information, will try to come up with geometry that will be an improvement over the current.

Again, this would be my interpretation how this knife can be improved. Making a 1:1 copy would be simply not worth it for me.

M

 

[mzer]

Actually, after giving it thought, I decided against 1:1 copy. 270mm Kato is a massive knife - 5.35mm over the heel, convex ground, 300g (probably 275g without a handle). At that thickness, it is guaranteed to wedge on anything denser than a carrot in the heel area and perhaps even in the mid area. To push it through the dense stuff like root vegetables, one would have to apply a considerable pressure - pushing the blade through a half of sweet potato required more than 7lb of pressure (limits on my kitchen scale).

Instead, I would like to solicit some input from Kato users and try to come up with a tweak to existing geometry that would improve the knife heel performance while retaining the current characteristics that make this knife desirable. Two things are going for it - weight and geometry, however, the thick geometry over the heel makes it less than optimal performer.

I think profile could also be tweaked a little bit.

I am going to start a new thread where I will ask Kato users questions to get an idea how they use the knife, what it excels or sucks at cutting, etc, to get a better understanding. Based on the information, will try to come up with geometry that will be an improvement over the current.

Again, this would be my interpretation how this knife can be improved. Making a 1:1 copy would be simply not worth it for me.

M

Is your conclusion about wedging and performance based on experience or on reasoning from the measurements?

 

[ThEoRy]

I think profile could also be tweaked a little bit.

Based on the information, will try to come up with geometry that will be an improvement over the current.



M

But, you can't tweak/improve it. You're from the Western hemisphere and live in Ehmurrricka.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Is your conclusion about wedging and performance based on experience or on reasoning from the measurements?

No, I cut with the knife, the full lengh of the edge, including heel. You can measure how much pressure it is required to cut through stuff (down push), by placing a cutting board over the scale and uniformly apply pressure until you cut through. Why would you measure it? When you do push/pull cutting, you apply downward pressure, without realizing it much. Generally, the thinner the geometry, the less pressure needed. In the case of Kato, in the tip area the knife cut very well with very little pressure, yet the heel area needed help.

My pressure on the Kato to cut a half of sweet potato with the heel area was over what my scale could handle, so I will have to repeat this test on my industrial scale in the shop. I estimate it to be about 20lb or even more.




M

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

20Lb might be too much, but definitely over 10. Will measure and report.



M

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

But, you can't tweak/improve it. You're from the Western hemisphere and live in Ehmurrricka.

By the same token, you will never learn how to cut fish properly. Depressing.

 

[Justin0505]

IMO this competition, in it's current form, is pretty close to meaningless. You are going to get purely qualitative results (opinions) from 3 people with completely unknown credentials.

I understand that some of the most knowledgeable and skilled members we have here are or where pro chefs, but it is a huge error in logic to assume that pro's have good knife knowledge or, more importantly any kind of analytic ability.

The analogy to crossfit doesn't hold up at all either: many of the exercises in crossfit are very technical and require weeks, months or even years to be able to perform as RX or even at all. Experienced crossfiters are fanatics about technique and have learned great body-awareness and self-analysis. The workouts are also very clearly defined and supervised. So, a WOD is a pretty scientific (measurable and repeatable) thing done by people who know what they are doing, think very carefully about what they are doing, and have some skills to evaluate and describe what they are doing.

What you are proposing in your competition is like grabbing 3 random people that "workout a lot" (unknown if its at a Bally's, triathlon, jazzercize, crossfit, etc) handing them a pair of Air Jordans and a pair of fivefingers and saying "go workout for a couple days wearing each of these and tell me what you think."

I also think that it's silly to think that your testers will be unbiased. Everyone has biases, but not everyone is aware of them. You need testers that are self-aware and disclose their biases, that are honest and reputable, and that are following a testing regimen that has a good mix of standardized, quantitative tests to complement the qualitative assessment. So the idea of trying to keep them from knowing what they knives are is an attempt to control for the wrong kind of bias.

I think that it's perfectly fine to include pro users in the testing, but you should also include non-pro knuts. A recreational user is just as capable of giving a knife 8hrs of use even if that's split over 2 days and feedback from someone that uses a knife just for the joy of doing so is every bit as valuable (if not more so in some cases) as someone that's using a knife "just to get $h1t done." I think that a mix of testers is a good idea.

So as for the quantitative assessments: I don't think that they need to be rocket science. Your idea of using a scale to measure push-cut force is a good one.
I've seen various methods of using rope or cardboard to measure wear-resistance, and I could also imagine a pretty simple rig where the knife is clamped edge-up and a weighted block of hardwood is run back and forth along the edge. A block or hinged board could also be dropped on the edge repeatedly from a measured height.
There are many threads about measuring sharpness both quantitatively, qualitatively, and judging functional sharpness: paper push cut along the entire edge, paper draw-cut, marco photos of edge, tomato and pepper skin tests... whatever is agreed upon could easily be done before and after each type of controlled and"real world" testing.

I think that this competition has the potential to be very interesting and informative, but given that the thousands of hours that went into the development of each of these knives, I think that it's only fair to put some real thought and effort into designing a meaningful assessment. No to muddy the waters, but I'd love to see some other knive in the mix too. I'd offer up my Martell, and I'm sure someone's got a Mario that they'd be willing to throw into the mix...

 

[ThEoRy]

By the same token, you will never learn how to cut fish properly. Depressing.

:spitcoffee:

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I have no problem trusting forum members to evaluate. Whatever changes I made were suggested by members. I actually think that forum members are better suited (more exposed) to knives from different makers than a third party and peer pressure would keep the comparison fair.