Kramer Article

[Michael Rader]

Hey Ryan. I'd love to see some pics of Murray's MS test knives.
-M

 

[sudsy9977]

i'll see if i can find the pic....i don't think i have it anymore.....it was on the cover of one of his catalogues if anyone has an old one....ryan

 

[JohnnyChance]

Yeah, looks cool. But whats that testing in kitchen knife?
I heard some are preparing "canned beans", but i would get truly impressed if he cut the coke can other way down

Dude, I just said it was something to look nice on camera. I didnt claim it was the be-all end-all test for finding the best kitchen knife.

 

[bieniek]

Dude, I am seriously trying to figure out why somebody like Kramer would do that. And check what? Stability, heat treatment?
If its a test in bladesports, it has to prove something. What?
What do you think would look that test with half-emptied bottle?

 

[Noodle Soup]

I guess my memory of my conversation with Murray was not a 100% accurate. He sent me the following e-mail.

I did submit two kitchen knives for ABS master smith testing, but not for the destructive test, but rather for the fit, finish and symmetry part of the test.

The blade I used for performance testing was a san-mai style blade of about 250 layers of mild steel, 1025, and nickel sheet on the outsides and about 180 layers of white steel #2 and blue steel #2 for the cutting core.

I tested with Bill Moran in front of a crowd of spectators at the Blade Show in 2000, and I got the MS rating in 2001.

Sincerely,

Murray Carter
ABS Master Bladesmith
17th Generation Yoshimoto Bladesmith
22097 NW West Union Rd
Hillsboro, OR, 97124
www.cartercutlery.com

 

[Michael Rader]

Very cool. I guess they either didn't remember or know about Murray's knives. It's all good, now I can stop telling people I was the first MS to test with a kitchen knife. Not that exiting of a 'brag' anyway Still love to see some pics of those knives though...
-M

 

[rockbox]

I would love to see a no compromise knife from Murray. He's more a volume maker unlike you guys, so most of the knives from him that I have seen have been made with time in mind.

 

[watercrawl]

There was a yanagi Carter made a few years back. A guy on KF commissioned it. It was Damascus haganr and Damascus jigane. I would consider it a no compromise knife if ever there was one. I can't recall why or what, but I and several others saw a few really bad things on it. Pictures only, so it could have been an illusion, but doubtful.

Now, Warrens knife set is pretty close to flawless.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

Higher-end Carters can be of good quality, but not guaranteed (in contrast with Kramer knives). Here is an example of a fairly good quality yanagi from Carter but with a less than a top-noth finish:
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/861031/tp/1/

Lower-end Carters that I have seen in person, had decent grind but outright mediocre fit and finish. San Mai cladding could be uneven and hagane exposed too much. I agree with Tom that these are production pieces made with time in mind. Also, his heat treat might be adequate, but not ideal, as from what I have read (never owned or sharpened a Carter), his knives form a lot of burr during sharpening. Burr is typically an indication of retained austenites or large size carbides - less than ideal heat treatment or choice of steel.

I guess, Carter subscribes to the same philosophy many Japanese smiths do - production oriented, adequate (not ideal) heat treatment, in other words, knives are made for adequate performance but with the least effort. The performance aspect comes from a knife's ability to take a keen edge. Edge retention, edge stability and edge toughness are secondary.
M

 

[sudsy9977]

hmmm.....never owned or sharpened a carter but his heat treatment is not ideal?.....yeah i see you say " from what i have read".....but that doesn't really seem fair to say.....i have owned many many carters.....from all of his series actually.....i am not saying murray's knives are the best out there....but in terms of performance i would put it up against anything else out there.....especially his outdour knives.....ryan

p.s.-maybe whoever said that needs to work on their sharpening a little

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

hmmm.....never owned or sharpened a carter but his heat treatment is not ideal?.....yeah i see you say " from what i have read".....but that doesn't really seem fair to say.....i have owned many many carters.....from all of his series actually.....i am not saying murray's knives are the best out there....but in terms of performance i would put it up against anything else out there.....especially his outdour knives.....ryan

p.s.-maybe whoever said that needs to work on their sharpening a little

I was referring to never-ending posts on burr and wire edge removal. Both have to do with not ideal heat treatment. A well heat treated knife will have little of that but it will also depend what steel is used.

Most Japanese knives I have owned, developed burr and wire edge during sharpening and require a lot of work have those removed.

If I am not mistaken, the knife Carter sent for sharpening competition had a wire edge, though it was the sharpest of all.

I think the point I am making here, is to put personal favoritism aside and report things as they are, with their pros and cons.

I think bringing outdoors knives into kitchen knife mix is irrelevant - different use and geometry.

M

PS: to be fair to Carter, his knives have pretty good geometry and ground to perform.