limited by knife quality or skill?

[jaybett]

When I started sharpening, there was so many things to consider, that it was a bit much at times. Anything that helped with the learning curve was appreciated. Stones with good feed back. Carbon knives have a better feel on the stones, then certain types of stainless.

It is scary to hold an expensive knife over the stones, knowing that you can screw it up royally. Most people, pick up inexpensive carbon knives to sharpen.

I was looking for something where I could practice the motions, of sharpening without using a stone. Stropping turned out to be the answer. The pen trick works with stropping. I could see where I was hitting and adjust the angle. I was able to practice, until I felt confident enough to use the stones.

Jay

 

[LKH9]

Sorry for being rude, but instead of capturing videos you'd better fix that broken tip.

I picked this knife to sharpen just for the sake of this topic. I don't feel like sharpening this because it's abused every single day by cutting on hard table surface without any cutting boards. I don't want to sharpen this again and see the edge being rolled all over from abuse. Just picked the worst knife in my house to show how quick it is to bring back the edge.

The carbon knives I see from butchers and old food shops are just Chinese style cleavers.

 

[rami_m]

I do not mean to offend, but one of the joys of sharpening for me would be considering the use of the knife and the steel and changing geometry to suit.

 

[cabarete_cub]

So, newboy, if your knife doesn't make it through xerox paper, it's a skill. But don't fret. It's a small skill.
I got mine in a month or so.

[Boring paper slicing and gross-ish hand shaving with $2.50 Perfecto knife]
[video=youtube_share;Y6oZ29HPXFs]http://youtu.be/Y6oZ29HPXFs[/video]

Just get yourself something you enjoy handling and you'd be there in no time.

 

[WarrenB]

I started sharpening with stones a few months ago and started by trying to sharpen cheap stainless ones we already had, not a nice experience, because I didn't care too much if I scuffed the face I don't think I spent long enough learning the feel of the stone, steel, angles and trying to get some muscle memory going.
I got my first decent knife quite quickly, a Hiromoto AS, I used it for a week OOTB and thought it was good then decided to see what I could do with it on a stone, I found myself taking more time and care as it was a more expensive knife and the soft cladding scratches so easily, the result of this was that I was really feeling what the stone and steel was doing and constantly stopped to check my progress, I learnt more in that first sharpening session than I did in the several attempts on the cheap stainless knives.
I am still improving my sharpening but feel comfortable sharpening any knife I would buy as I have gained the ability to work methodically and realise it's not a race, I was just thrashing the cheap knives up and down the stones to be honest and not learning much at all.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Millions of mouths have been fed over time with carbon Chinese cleavers. How many meals have been butchered with crappy cheap stainless knives.

 

[daveb]

How many meals have been butchered with crappy cheap stainless knives.

All of them?

 

[Benuser]

I started sharpening with stones a few months ago and started by trying to sharpen cheap stainless ones we already had, not a nice experience, because I didn't care too much if I scuffed the face I don't think I spent long enough learning the feel of the stone, steel, angles and trying to get some muscle memory going.
I got my first decent knife quite quickly, a Hiromoto AS, I used it for a week OOTB and thought it was good then decided to see what I could do with it on a stone, I found myself taking more time and care as it was a more expensive knife and the soft cladding scratches so easily, the result of this was that I was really feeling what the stone and steel was doing and constantly stopped to check my progress, I learnt more in that first sharpening session than I did in the several attempts on the cheap stainless knives.
I am still improving my sharpening but feel comfortable sharpening any knife I would buy as I have gained the ability to work methodically and realise it's not a race, I was just thrashing the cheap knives up and down the stones to be honest and not learning much at all.

Thanks for this great post!

 

[LKH9]

Millions of mouths have been fed over time with carbon Chinese cleavers. How many meals have been butchered with crappy cheap stainless knives.

My elderly friend here got one made by an old Chinese blacksmith ages ago, quite cheap for the order. She told me that she chopped down a small tree with it and it didn't even have a chip in the edge afterwards.

 

[Ruso]

Am I the only one who practiced on all different kind of cheap stainless and did not "die" in the attempt?
I was borrowing all the knives from my friends and relatives and start rubbing against the stones. Slowly, but steady burrs began to appear, then on another side. As I kept practicing on pretty much the same knives I could tell the level of sharpening based on paper test. I could see my level of refinement going up or be stagnant. Then the concept of wire edge appeared after few times of having the "scary sharp" knife to go dull in one session. I spent quite a time reading and practicing the stropping and other techniques to remove the burr/wire edge. Still working on it though I think, the main idea is to use more or less the same knives and perform same test for sharpness. This will give you an idea of your skill.
But! When I sharpened my Kono HD for the first time, I was surprise how easy and effortless it was!
So yea, if you can sharpen a cheap knife properly you will have no issues in moving to better stuff. But I am afraid the opposite it not quite true.

As Alexander Suvorov said: "Hard in learning, easy in the combat" (rough translation) = Lessons hard to learn are sweet to know.

 

[cabarete_cub]

So, no pain, no gain. Pain doesn't necessarily mean gain though. Can anybody think of any field
where substandard materials/equipment are intentionally used for learning at the beginning stage?

 

[icanhaschzbrgr]

Can anybody think of any field where substandard materials/equipment are intentionally used for learning at the beginning stage?

Welcome to Russia. In every field here you'd get substandard equipment when learning.

The thing is, here on KKF most would bash cheap stainless knives and urge you to dump them as soon as possible. While in some countries (including Russia) such knives are the most popular ones, like 99% of market share. It's hard to ignore 99% of market share you know. And those knives actually works pretty good when you know how to sharpen them: forget about wetstones, just take a steel or bottom of ceramic cup and you could make a working sharp (not heir splitting, but sharp enough for home kitchen tasks) in minutes if not seconds. Yep, those knives won't hold edge, so you'd need to steel them again. But that's fast. And it's cheap. And you don't have to thing about shinogi lines, about cleaning or soaking your stones etc. Just a cheap knife that you would throw away in half a year, because it became unusable from frequent steeling. That's how things are here. And my personal experience tells me that very few people are care to change habits and interested in learning how to use and maintain high end knives.

Personally I don't share the opinion that you shouldn't waste time sharpening cheap stainless. That's just doesn't makes sense to me. Cheap stainless knife is just another a tool and if you want it too be sharp, then you need know how to make it sharp. Yes, there are subtle differences in technique, but that doesn't means one should discard SS and focus on carbon knives. I was almost proud of myself when I could sharpen any cheap knife in my father's cottage house using just the natural stuff like floor tiles, wooden panels, cardboard etc.

The basics of sharpening are pretty simple and should allow you to sharpen any metal object to a reasonable sharpening level. Another question is if you should spend time doing it or not.

 

[LKH9]

Now, that's the spirit of a true knife lover and the Sharpening Station. Over here, even a pocket knife is made of stainless steel. Stainless is preferred in kitchen because it's "maintenance free", and dirt cheap. I have to live with stainless knives.

@cabarete_cub, long ago, I gave you a link to a cheap product made for sharpening these knives, with a very detailed article, but you didn't appreciate it, saying that you don't believe in these items, something like that. The method I'm using is pretty much mimics that commercial angle-guide, that's a classic American technique, precise and effective. I recommend that commercial angle-guide for you because it's a no-brainer item, anyone can hold it and use effectively in no time. My own method with using dowel and office binder clips, or gripping the dowel by hand, needs some time to learn and get used to, which is not too easy for a beginner. This is why I recommend that link to you instead of trying to shove my method down your throat.

 

[cabarete_cub]

@cabarete_cub, long ago, I gave you a link to a cheap product made for sharpening these knives, with a very detailed article, but you didn't appreciate it, saying that you don't believe in these items, something like that. The method I'm using is pretty much mimics that commercial angle-guide, that's a classic American technique, precise and effective. I recommend that commercial angle-guide for you because it's a no-brainer item, anyone can hold it and use effectively in no time. My own method with using dowel and office binder clips, or gripping the dowel by hand, needs some time to learn and get used to, which is not too easy for a beginner. This is why I recommend that link to you instead of trying to shove my method down your throat.

my actual response was:

Of course angle is my main problem, but that's exactly what makes the whole process so interesting for me.

And I appreciate you not trying to shove your method down my throat, especially considering I can achieve the same result free-hand.

 

[nerologic]

Okay, crew. You can both sharpen knives. Now quit bickering. You can only truly tell whose is bigge... I mean sharper by comparing them in person. The Internet is surely no place for such disputes.

This is a transparent attempt at (another) off-topic change of subject but an honest question: LKH9, in the wake of the two Malaysia Airlines tragedies, it seems like people are steering away from that airline. Are there a lot of alternatives available where you're from? Do you feel like it was merely bad luck, or have there been other concerns with the airline building up to now?

 

[LKH9]

Okay, crew. You can both sharpen knives. Now quit bickering. You can only truly tell whose is bigge... I mean sharper by comparing them in person. The Internet is surely no place for such disputes.

This is a transparent attempt at (another) off-topic change of subject but an honest question: LKH9, in the wake of the two Malaysia Airlines tragedies, it seems like people are steering away from that airline. Are there a lot of alternatives available where you're from? Do you feel like it was merely bad luck, or have there been other concerns with the airline building up to now?

No no, I'm not starting another fight, he asked for sharpening equipment for beginner, so I just remind him of what I shared with him before.

------------
Airasia.

About that Ukraine tragedy, from the rumor I heard of, which sounds quite logical, Malaysian plane was chosen as the sacrifice because we have no status in the world, as there were some other planes from other countries passing the same route. Not quite remember the reason they have to shoot down a passenger plane. That's what people here said. But I don't care anyway, life is too short to worry about stuff not related to me. :threadjacked:

 

[cabarete_cub]

I would just ask LKH9 to, please, stop ascribing to me things I never said.
Want a competition? Fine, extra incentive for me to get better.
Post some results for me to beat. More use for both of us and more fun for other forum members.

Now with your, nerologic, permission I'd go and start a new thread titled "Whose is sharper?".

 

[LKH9]

Am I the only one who practiced on all different kind of cheap stainless and did not "die" in the attempt?
I was borrowing all the knives from my friends and relatives and start rubbing against the stones.
So yea, if you can sharpen a cheap knife properly you will have no issues in moving to better stuff. But I am afraid the opposite it not quite true.

As Alexander Suvorov said: "Hard in learning, easy in the combat" (rough translation) = Lessons hard to learn are sweet to know.

When I was totally new to sharpening, I tried all kinds of methods I could think of, sandpaper of different grits, metal file, hard roadside bricks, ceramic cup bottom, all to no avail. I didn't know about the burr and deburr stuff, had horrible angles and very horrible stroking methods.

Edit: Looks like I offended someone with some words that I said wrongly, I apologize now.

 

[nerologic]

Now with your, nerologic, permission I'd go and start a new thread titled "Whose is sharper?".

Just sayin', the OP cleared off after 3 posts on the first page. Hopefully he wasn't scared away. That certainly wasn't the goal of everyone giving him sharpening advice. That said, there are some useful nuggets that got stirred up as well. I'm 100% tongue-in-cheek about the Internet being no place for disputes. That's probably its main purpose.

Oh, and I hereby grant thee permission, on this twenty-third day of the seventh month of the two thousand fourteenth year Anno Domini, to start thy thread "Whose doth be most sharpe?"

 

[mhlee]

Okay, crew. You can both sharpen knives. Now quit bickering. You can only truly tell whose is bigge...

Hey, Benuser. Be sure to tell neurologic how classy he is too.

 

[Benuser]

Hey, Benuser. Be sure to tell neurologic how classy he is too.

Welcome to my ignore list, Michael.