Mid-Tech?

Advertise with us
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I see absolutely no reason why a knife could not have the cutting and heat treat farmed and not be a custom knife. There's no reason these processes need to be personal.

-AJ
 
ajhuff said:
I see absolutely no reason why a knife could not have the cutting and heat treat farmed and not be a custom knife. There's no reason these processes need to be personal.

-AJ
Click to expand...

No argument here, as custom implies (by one definition) to be made to one's preference. In this sense, it's different from 100% sole authorship knife.

Also, I suggest you make your argument with American Blacksmith Society. I think they need to update their constitution and get in step with time - CNC era. They make way to much emphasis on manual work and skill. A robot can do it better and cheaper. Also, they should allow these knives be used for JS and MS entrance exams.

M
 
My problem is that "mid-tech" seems to define a lower value and lower market price. So just because the cutting and/or heat treating is farmed out, I see no reason for that to lower the value of the knife. As far as transparency, I don't see any reason that a maker needs to disclose how or who cuts blanks or who does the heat treating. It has no bearing on the value of the work. But it seems that as soon as a maker says he sent the steel out to be cut or out for heat treatment the knife immediately get labeled as "mid-tech" and the cry goes out "That's too much money to pay for a mid-tech knife, maybe a custom, but he's not doing all the work himself." And that's utter nonsense.

-AJ
 
ajhuff said:
...As far as transparency, I don't see any reason that a maker needs to disclose how or who cuts blanks or who does the heat treating. ...
-AJ
Click to expand...

To stay on topic.

Some people value skilled work over automated factory work differently, and it would be helpful for them to have all information to make an educated decision when making a purchase, so this is why categorization is important.

As for a disclosure of type of material used, details of processes, etc. - unless one does it voluntarily, it's a proprietary information and most people have no problem with it. Would anybody care if Bill withholds the name of his water-jet cutter? :)

M
 
ajhuff said:
My problem is that "mid-tech" seems to define a lower value and lower market price. So just because the cutting and/or heat treating is farmed out, I see no reason for that to lower the value of the knife. As far as transparency, I don't see any reason that a maker needs to disclose how or who cuts blanks or who does the heat treating. It has no bearing on the value of the work. But it seems that as soon as a maker says he sent the steel out to be cut or out for heat treatment the knife immediately get labeled as "mid-tech" and the cry goes out "That's too much money to pay for a mid-tech knife, maybe a custom, but he's not doing all the work himself." And that's utter nonsense.

-AJ
Click to expand...

It lowers the value because the maker sets it at a lower value. A midtech line is specifically designed by them to be a cheaper alternative to their full custom knives, that they can sell to people who are not in the market for full custom, and to be able to sell a bunch of knives at once, or at least in a short period of time.

I don't care about the cutting of profiles. If you are shaping a knife by stock removal, you cutting it or a machine doing it matters not to me. Cutting them out by hand is actually really inefficient, but it does allow you to make profile changes and one-off sizes and/or shapes.

Heat treat I think is much more important and some information on either who is doing it or what specs the HT was given and their process.
 
Part of what I am saying is that I don't think that makers should lower their price just because they farmed a process out. Nor do I think that customers are justified in thinking a knife should be at a lower price just because not 100% was made in house.

As to heat treat, more nonsense. Who provides heat treat schedules with the sale of their knifes? Who out there is buying knives that effectively evaluates heat treatments? I don't think anyone can honestly say that because a maker heat treated his own knife it is somehow better than if he sent it to Milwaukee Kustom Heat Treating.

As Pabloz posted, his outsourcing of heat treatment was value added. His leather knives don't look "mid-tech" to me. If Pierre outsources his HT where he feels that he gets a superior product than if he does it himself, why should he sell his knife for less? My opinion, in the short time I have been here, is that the "mid-tech" name is a stigma that forum members brand a knife with, not necessarily the maker. It's like a Scarlet A.

-AJ
 
AJ -
No one buys for the heat treat process, but they do buy a knife for the results of said heat treat. Devin Thomas, Bill Burke, and others have a very reliable reputation of having a great heat treatment. If they switch to sending it out, it's not as well known.
Why shouldn't a knife be a lower price if a maker farms things out? Especially if they result in a lower cost for the maker. You aren't just paying for the end piece, you are paying for the time and skill of a craftsman.
 
So Here is My two cents on what "MY" "MIDTECH" knives will be. I am going to buy 52100 sheet steel not forge it out from 3" square bars. I am going to have all blanks cut by Boise metal works on their water jet. Now here is where there is some indecision, I have found a custom heat treater that says he will do a triple heat treat with cryo. I plan on sending him some blade blanks and having them done and test them to destruction to see if they are acceptable "TO ME". If I determine that the heat treat is satisfactory then I will have them done by him if not then I will do them myself. I will grind them and assemble them, then sharpen and sign them with BTB midtech along with the year and assmbly number ie.. 2010 #13. All hadles will be purchased ready made. there will be some "custom midtechs at the end of every year. These will be made of one knife from each batch with a matching custom handle and knife block. these will be limited to wood species that I can get in large enough pieces to make a block out of so there won't be anything too exotic. if there is enought demand they will be raffled other wise first come first serve. no orders on the sets. I don't have prices yet it will depend on what work and how much time I have to put into them and what the farmed out labor and materials cost me.
 
ajhuff said:
Part of what I am saying is that I don't think that makers should lower their price just because they farmed a process out. Nor do I think that customers are justified in thinking a knife should be at a lower price just because not 100% was made in house.

As to heat treat, more nonsense. Who provides heat treat schedules with the sale of their knifes? Who out there is buying knives that effectively evaluates heat treatments? I don't think anyone can honestly say that because a maker heat treated his own knife it is somehow better than if he sent it to Milwaukee Kustom Heat Treating.
Click to expand...

I don't think the makers are lowering the price because people think it cheapens the product. They are lowering the price because farming out some of the processes allow them to do so, and then they can sell the knife at a lower price to a larger market. There are more people interested in knives that are a few hundred dollars than there are people interested in $700+ (or whatever) knives.

I'm not asking for their entire heat treat process, schedule, quench times, etc. I would like to know what process they are using (for example, Pierre said his would be salt pods) and what hardness they are achieving. That's about it. I have a Devin ITK, I have no clue the exact process that was used on it. However, Devin is well known for having superb heat treat methods, and he stated these were done to his specifications, which is also good enough for me.

And I am pretty sure anyone with a Bill Burke can say their knife is better than if it was sent out to MK Heat Treating.

I don't view mid-tech with any stigma what so ever. They are just different than custom knives, or factory ones.
 
Andrew H said:
AJ -
No one buys for the heat treat process, but they do buy a knife for the results of said heat treat. Devin Thomas, Bill Burke, and others have a very reliable reputation of having a great heat treatment. If they switch to sending it out, it's not as well known.
Why shouldn't a knife be a lower price if a maker farms things out? Especially if they result in a lower cost for the maker. You aren't just paying for the end piece, you are paying for the time and skill of a craftsman.
Click to expand...


Probably because I don't consider heat treatment and cutting steel to be craftsmanship. Forging? Yes. Handle making? Yes. Grinding? Yes. But not cutting or HT.

As a metallurgist, a founding member of ASM's Heat Treat Society and a guy who outsourced thousands of tons of castings to heat treaters I have to say that as a collective whole an entire mythology has been created around heat treating, worse so than steel chemistries.

I think that knife makers are really screwing themselves over on this whole "mid-tech" thing. But that's their loss and my gain. I'll let it go now.

-AJ
 
My coworker has a shirt from a car audio place that says "define custom". We should call them.
 
JohnnyChance said:
I don't think the makers are lowering the price because people think it cheapens the product. They are lowering the price because farming out some of the processes allow them to do so, and then they can sell the knife at a lower price to a larger market. There are more people interested in knives that are a few hundred dollars than there are people interested in $700+ (or whatever) knives.

I'm not asking for their entire heat treat process, schedule, quench times, etc. I would like to know what process they are using (for example, Pierre said his would be salt pods) and what hardness they are achieving. That's about it. I have a Devin ITK, I have no clue the exact process that was used on it. However, Devin is well known for having superb heat treat methods, and he stated these were done to his specifications, which is also good enough for me.

And I am pretty sure anyone with a Bill Burke can say their knife is better than if it was sent out to MK Heat Treating.

I don't view mid-tech with any stigma what so ever. They are just different than custom knives, or factory ones.
Click to expand...

There is a point here to address. Cost vs. price. As a custom goes, here is a dirty break down of components to be considered. Blade blank, abrasives (belts, sand paper, mesh whatever else gets used...) bolsters if any, scales, pins. Each item has a cost to the makes, that he needs to recoupe. The big variable is time involved in creating a knife, and the makers reputation. As a maker, we can't always charge $X.XX an hour, and some makers reputation, isn't at the level of others, otherwise we would all charge what Kramer does. So with the balancing act, a "price" is set.

Enter the midtech. Buying in bulk, farming out processes, HT, cutting, rough grinding. Done by industry, efficiently, and with less time. Up front, it is expensive. But spread the cost over several knives, the cost is way less. This allows us to adjust our "price" to appeal to a greater demographic. Note "value" isn't involved. Is a Kramer any more valuable than a Thomas, Burke, Raider, Rodrigue, Martell...? That has to be decided by the individual. I can't sell a knife valued the same as a Kramer, why (someone please let me know, I'm poor!) because his reputation, and market appeal affords him the oppertunity to charge what he does. (forgive me for useing Kramer as my example, he is able to do what he does, for good reason, and good for him!)

I am able, as with Mr Thomas, Mr Burk, and Mr Raider, able to offer knives of high quality, built at a lower cost, which I think, is great Value!

I'll stop now, my wife says I talk to much :D
 
ajhuff said:
Probably because I don't consider heat treatment and cutting steel to be craftsmanship. Forging? Yes. Handle making? Yes. Grinding? Yes. But not cutting or HT.
-AJ
Click to expand...

I don't believe I said cutting steel was a craft. I said "you are paying for the time and skill of a craftsman." The time they spend doing stock removal themselves is time they could be grinding or whatever, which will increase the price of the knife. Also, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on HT being a craft.
 
Heat treating not a craft?

Perhaps not by garden variety standards...

But as a long time user of Bob (Dr. D2) Dozier's steel, and someone who has used a bunch of others treatment of D2, I categorically disagree.

The guy has squeezed enormous amount of performance out of that steel through his heat treat craftsmanship and recipe.

Phil Wilson may disagree as well. :cool2:
 
To me, it seems like the difference in opinion may be a misunderstanding of points of sorts - "actual heat treating," i.e. the physical act of doing the heat treat, versus "determining the best process by which to heat treat a steel."

I think the examples made of heat treating as a craft have addressed the processes developed by certain people, wihle the examples of heat treating not as a craft have focused on the act of heat treating, not the time, testing and manner developed by individuals.

But, I do agree that mid-tech can devalue a person's overall work, if the mid-tech product is not a good product. For example, look at wines. Many wineries make a "mid level" label. The ones that have not been good have seriously affected the overall perception of a winery, e.g. Robert Mondavi, Kendall Jackson, etc.

As a buyer, I certainly think that mid-techs are an option; as a maker, I would have to think long and seriously as to whether the pros outweigh the cons.
 
IIRC, a few years back, the Knifemakers Guild promulgated some rules that defined "custom" knives as they saw it and as such, regulated what could be shown at their show. I wonder of the term "mid-tech" arose out of that in that mid tech knives use some techniques and/or technologies that the Guild did not approve of for a "true" custom knife like waterjet or laser blanking and CNC milling? If you include outside heat treating then a LOT of custom makers aren't really making customs, no?
 
I like this topic and discussion -- and also Bill Burke's thread on the same theme. This mid-tech thing has been touched upon a couple of times briefly in this forum, but now that makers such as Pierre and Burke are involved, the term has rightly (and necessarily) been bumped up again for some cleaning out. IMO I see this whole 'mid-tech' movement as a natural progression. A knifemaker has emerged from a cottage (i.e., household) industry with limited scale to the manager of a larger value chain -- just as Apple computer went from a garage production to something bigger and more spread out. I would never want Pierre or Burke or any knifemaker, for example, to divert their energies to cultivate wood suppliers and learn how to stabilize wood. That is not where their value lies. But figuring out where to outsource so they can make more knives and concentrate on other types of value is good thing IMO.

With that said, I do wonder if there will be a crowding out of other knifemaking activities. The petty I got from Pierre was a wonderfully unique knife that I will love for years. Will more mid-techs mean fewer (or more) knives of this kind? Will waiting lists for the 100% authored unique blades become longer (or shorter)? Production changes of this sort often bring other changes too. Just thinking out loud on this one.

k.
 
I am sure there will be makers who will continue making knives in more traditional way - doing at least critical processes by themselves and putting their names on their own work, as there will be chefs who will cook from raw ingredients. They will have to get more efficient and better at what they do and how they market themselves to stay competitive.

There will be a veal cutlet for every tomato, as the saying goes. It will be left to the customers to decide.

M
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
No argument here, as custom implies (by one definition) to be made to one's preference. In this sense, it's different from 100% sole authorship knife.

Also, I suggest you make your argument with American Blacksmith Society. I think they need to update their constitution and get in step with time - CNC era. They make way to much emphasis on manual work and skill. A robot can do it better and cheaper. Also, they should allow these knives be used for JS and MS entrance exams.

M
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with this...The reason for their testing is to see that the person has the capability to make said knife ALL by hand...To allow this to happen would go against every thing the ABS stands for. I think some of the test methods are archaic, but it is still all about the forged, HAND made blade....It isn't about cheaper...It is about an aquired skill. And to be allowed in a JS or MS test is absurd.

Mike
 
Mike Davis said:
I strongly disagree with this...The reason for their testing is to see that the person has the capability to make said knife ALL by hand...To allow this to happen would go against every thing the ABS stands for. I think some of the test methods are archaic, but it is still all about the forged, HAND made blade....It isn't about cheaper...It is about an aquired skill. And to be allowed in a JS or MS test is absurd.

Mike
Click to expand...

+ + a whole bunch

Any growing trend of custom kitchen knives to a broader market (see popularity) may be fresh, but in the realm of overall custom knives, this ground has long since been trod by multitudes of very talented and learned craftsmen...
 
Ditto, but that to me is an inherent difference with forged knives.

-AJ
 
Mike Davis said:
I strongly disagree with this...The reason for their testing is to see that the person has the capability to make said knife ALL by hand...To allow this to happen would go against every thing the ABS stands for. I think some of the test methods are archaic, but it is still all about the forged, HAND made blade....It isn't about cheaper...It is about an aquired skill. And to be allowed in a JS or MS test is absurd.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
I am surprised you didn't picked my statement as a sarcasm that was really directed at one person - AJ. :)
 
I don't make knives, I just buy them, so bear with me. This is intended only to be a comment on art and commerce.
Among the many catalogs that fell through the mail slot today was one from Sur la Table, wherein I was offered the opportunity to buy one of 250 carbon damascus chef's knives. each "certified by Bob Kramer to meet his exacting standards without compromise. Each "perfectly riveted handle" finished with a stainless steel center pin "handcrafted by Bob Kramer himself". All for the low price of only $1,799.95 (value $2,100).
Maybe Bob Kramer really was born to a clown.
 
" . .born to be a clown". Or, perhaps he's just really deep into self-parody. Maybe he should consider marketing stick-on dots which look like pins, so folks could put them on their German knives and say, "I have a "Kramer".
Of the knives I own, the ones I value most are hand made; three Carters, and three Sadayusas. Coincidentally, they are also the ones that work best. Knives line up in my block(s) in the order in which I use them; those six are on the left. I have a lot of knives which look better, are more symmetric etc., but they're just knives.
Case in point: I have a couple DT-ITK's, which are fine knives for the money, but if I were shopping now, I'd wait for the apparently soon-to-be available lines of "mid-techs" from every knife maker on the planet.
One of my favorite possessions is a small 160 year-old rug from Beluchistan. It was made by a young girl a long time ago, and now hangs over my bed. I have a number of finer rugs, but none of which I cherish more.
I have no doubt that technically better knives can be made by robots, but who cares. If I just wanted stuff cut, I'd pay someone to do it. Put your name on that.
 
On a subject of commercial heat-treating. Kramer Henckels chef in 52100 factory heat treated to Bob's specs (imagine state of the art HT room at Henckels factory) was outperformed in commercial kitchen by a knife heat treated by an amateur maker with a very basic HT setup (Evenheat electric oven, peanut oil, LN) but the heat treatment recipe was provided by an experienced maker. I don't discagree that outsourcing makes a good sense from business-standpoint, but it also comes with a price.

M
 
If the HT'ing is done in a professional setup, to the specified request of the maker, and tested, prior to final release, the - comes with a price - is a moot point. As Bill said, if he isn't happy with the professional HT, he will do it himself. I equate "happy" with "tested".

Consider this... if Henckels heat treated the kramer knives, the same way they heat treat their own knives, is it a surprise that a back yard maker was able to do better? From all I have read on the forums, Henckels, Forstner, Sabitier etc, on of the biggest complaints has been HT, and weight.

Again, my thoughts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top