Moritaka - how long?

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Here's the best photo I can muster at the moment :p It's the steak knife against a straight edge, with the knife spine being the "highest" point in the photo (i.e. you can't really see it because it's out of focus) and the light coming through is because of the overgrind.

90BOR8Cn3AekaMBd72e15rEa17M-0Btm2EuMrClj0_E


https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/90BOR8Cn3AekaMBd72e15rEa17M-0Btm2EuMrClj0_E?feat=directlink
 
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As for creating one by hand, I know a guy who pushes REALLY hard on a 320 grit stone and leaves his knife like that. It's not sharp, it's just a suisin, so it cuts when it's dull. Plus he puts the whole flat of the blade on the stone, so it's paper thin and as tall as a suji by now.

Anyways, it's wavy as all getout, but just like Akiko said, he does a kind of drag along the board, so he doesn't really care.

That answer saddens me. Overgrinds happen, and they are hard enough to detect that you can't catch them all if you are putting out high volume, but to accept an uneven HT, overgrinds, etc as just "part of being handmade" is silly to me. I doubt Iizuka san would agree with him.
 
Dave Martell said:
I wonder how long will this go on - how many more people I'll have to disappoint with the news that their knife is no good? How long will these knives continue to be sold here?

As you might be able to guess I just got another bad one in where I had to tell another customer that I can't work on his knife. Another $150 down the crapper for the customer.....another $150 in the bank for the vendor.
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Still wondering how long this will go on for......got two more here.....two more losses for customers and two more profits for the seller & maker. I'm so friggin sick of this sh*t!
 
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Here's the one of the two that will photograph some of the issues....now try to dispute this....


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Moritaka Knives Crap grinding 2.jpg
 
IMO, any e-tailer selling this crap either A) knows NOTHING about kitchen knives or B) is an outright swindler
 
Dave, tell us how you really feel. Sorry to see you guys are having such an issue with these....
 
so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:
 
Crothcipt said:
so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:
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I could....one customer (just today) (not the above knife owner though) told me to throw his knife in the trash.
 
I'd like to see one of these junkers in person.
 
That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.
 
Yeah. I've ground a few knives now. I would have given up if I couldn't do better than that, lol.
 
That was me!!!
I got it at *cough cough* togo.com

I am going to send him an email and buy something from elsewhere.
 
I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?
 
dav said:
I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?
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I've only had one bad experience with a damascus Moritaka (a kamagata usuba). I was asked to thin the blade as it was thick above the bevel (about 1/2") up and while doing this the core delaminated/separated from the cladding and popped a 2-3" long section out that was 1/2" deep from the edge. Upon inspection I could see that there was only 1/2" of AS core steel inserted into the cladding - it did not extend up into the blade beyond this point. Later, a member posted YouTube videos showing how Moritaka inserts these core steel bits into the cladding and this shed light on the subject, it looks like they use very little expensive steel (which is OK and quite normal) but don't forge it through to the spine as others do.

Anyway, I can't completely blame them for this as it's possible that I ground the knife too thin and caused the delamination but it does occur to me that I've never had this happen with any other maker before or since so.....
 
if people are making knives, i promise you they are not making swords (in any real capacity)

*in reference to Japan with regard to traditional work
 
dav said:
.....why...doesn't the maker take note.....?
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To me, why the maker does what the maker does is irrelavent. Back when I [had money, and...] bought my Carter, my Watanabe, etc. Moritaka was non existant. They had no market pressence or penetration among "us" Knife knuts on the forums. So whatever sales are coming thru the various forum pipelines are just additional gravey for him

What has really really puzzled me is why....WHY someone would buy one of those knives knowing there is at least some kind of issue with them. The controversy of all other knife makers combined - including Cutco - doesn't come close to the debate, difference of opinion and controversy of moritaka.
 
Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.
 
Yeah they're sword making connection is a shtick based off of previous generations having actually done this work. They love using this to add to their hype. Every time they get a westerner in their shop they put them in front of banner and have them hold a sword and smile while they shoot pictures - it's all play.
 
I don't understand the reasoning behind "takes and holds and edge well".

Of course they do, they are Aogami Super. Lots of Japanese brands do great heat treating Aogami Super. A Dojo Gyuto is AS and it's $80. I wonder what the HT is like on those.
 
dav said:
Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.
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Hey if your knives are working good for you and they sharpen up with no issues then cool - no worries, I wouldn't get put off in your case.

BTW, years ago while discussing this matter with a future Moritaka e-tailer (I was disclosing what I know about the knives) I was told by this Moritaka e-tailer, "Well you know Dave, there really isn't a problem unless the customer knows about it". Yup - true story folks
 
I'm sure they aren't Jon although Fujiwara is another. Moritaka were making swords until relatively recently and the current elder Moritaka is still a listed swordsmith, I'm obviously not knowledgeable in this area but for the life of me can't understand that a maker whom represents a solid family reputation is producing products it seems at best of variable quality. Mike whether the trade he/they get via "foreign" forums is of much importance or not eventually even their main market will desert them as I'm sure its a competitive area and their are certainly other offerings at a similar price point (Japan or where ever their main market is) who seem to be more consistent around QC, or maybe its a question of Moritaka sending all their seconds (or thirds and fourths lol) to the US!

Eamon other than me spelling "an" wrong all I was doing was stating the obvious (to me) I'm sure others do too its just I like or liked the combination of the rustic/kuro-uchi appearance and general performance I'm getting from these knives. Oh well in my search for great British knives I'm finding the resurgence of the little mesters and some new makers who are producing some lovely hand made sheffield knives maybe I'll stop buying Japanese altogether!
 
my wife's family is close friends with a very well know swordsmith... he and i have had a number of talks about this. Last time, he mentioned how a number of knifemakers come to be judged with regard to their swordmaking so they can get the qualification. Besides saying they werent good at all, he made a point of asking some why they were going through the trouble of becoming certified as a swordmaker to which they replied, "so i can sell more knives"

that that for what its worth
 
This maker will always sell because of the price point/bang for buck appeal hits just right and because problems often don't appear right away, they don't show until after you've used the knife for awhile, a repair is needed, or sharpening has occurred which all leave them blameless. Couple this with retailers who are bottom line driven and the problem just goes on and on because they (the retailers) have no incentive to address the problems with the maker. Also, and unfortunately, most of these knives are purchased by newer Japanese knife users who have no idea what they're looking at and even when older more experienced users purchase them they don't want to see what they know is likely there. I see 7 out of 10 (at least) Moritaka knives with overgrinds so what would make me think that this doesn't represent what's floating around out there?

Maybe we need to get an attorney to gather up all the bad knives and send them back to these retailers for repair, replacement, or refund? I bet that'd be one hell of a box full if I inspected them to qualify. LOL :D
 
I'm sure your right Dave maybe I'll be lucky who knows maybe not, but I guess with the limited amount of time I'll use any knife and my relative lack of skill in the kitchen I'm probably one of the guys you are talking about. I will be trying different makers in time but even from my position this maker has lost at least a few more sales, and I'm sure many others so in time it will add up I'm sure. We live in a small world where anyone who is English speaking searching for Moritaka is likely to come up with a post around these quality issues so I'm guessing in time it will hurt their sales. I've experienced the excellent service from Shinichi Watanabe and am sure that there are many others like him. Me I would want to take pride in anything I do, I was a tradesman and prided myself in the quality of my work so just can't understand this whole situation. If I produced or did some work for someone and came up with substandard work 9which I have never done) I'd deal with it/put it right as I'd be too embarrassed to put my name to it let alone carry on doing the same thing.
 
ThEoRy said:
That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.
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I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve.

It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.


M
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve.

It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.


M
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Some people are content with being mediocre. I knew students in high school who were happy just getting all C's. If I got a B I would torture myself.

It was difficult in my transition to becoming a manager because I couldn't for the life of me understand that other people don't hold themselves to as high a standard of perfection as I do myself. I just couldn't fathom the idea that being "just good enough" was ok for some. I just couldn't even conceive that was possible. "They have to demand perfection of themselves right?" "That's how I feel about myself and work ethic so it must be how they feel too right?" I was projecting my own feelings onto others when I thought about their output and production. I had to actually be told, "No, they don't think like you, they don't feel like you, they're not you, that's why you are their manager now." And "Some people are happy just being a C." It was difficult to grasp but I get it now. Like you said Marko, guys like us are just wired different.

You either got it or you don't. In my book, Moritaka doesn't have it.
 
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