Moritaka strikes again

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Marko Tsourkan said:
Yes, that is what a 'hole' or a 'dip' looks like. You will notice it when your edge doesn't hit the stone, while you sharpen. It's basically an overgrind. It can be at the edge or above it - hell, it can be anywhere on the blade, depending how sloppy the person grinding it is.

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M
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:plus1:

The key to being able to properly sharpen out a hole in the edge is that 1. The overgrind is not deeper than the center of the knife at the edge bevel, 2. It is smaller than your stone surface. It will still be weak, but it can be done.

But what Maksim was talking about was that the core steel matches the diagram, either because it took a hammer blow, or twisted, or whatever, and the cladding does not, because it was mashed around it and shaped to be the correct volume and design overall...meaning that as you try to sharpen the knife the core is not lined up! Can't fix that! That's crazy. You are basically selling a bent knife.
 
Yes, the ones I have seen were straight over-grinds, many right at the heel.

Twisting might be the case if a blank was forged too thin at the edge and subsequently distorted upon quenching. Core steel will have more tension (and hardness) then low carbon cladding, so most twisting/warping are like to originate from core steel.


M
 
I guess I'm familiar with what Marko speaks of. I too have seen overground heels, and really, it's not the end of the world...

As far as these holes, it hasn't happened to me, but if it does, I will be on this forum crying and whining, lol...
 
NO ChoP! said:
I guess I'm familiar with what Marko speaks of. I too have seen overground heels, and really, it's not the end of the world...

As far as these holes, it hasn't happened to me, but if it does, I will be on this forum crying and whining, lol...
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If you do get ripped off with one of these knives then you'd have the right to cry & whine here.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
Yes, that is what a 'hole' or a 'dip' looks like. You will notice it when your edge doesn't hit the stone, while you sharpen. It's basically an overgrind. It can be at the edge or above it - hell, it can be anywhere on the blade, depending how sloppy the person grinding it is.

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M
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Marko, no it doesn't look like that it is also bend out on other side :eyebrow: Really i dont know even how they do it.
It was hidden behind the edge this time :dontknow:
Dont get me wrong i liked my Moritakas a lot, but this issue just did, that i will never recommend them anymore
 
I am in no way defending Morataka.

The cleavers, I own are like guilty pleasures, they sharpen so easily, and cut really well. I've resigned myself, that one day I will uncover a defect in them. Until then I go on in blissful ignorance.

Jay
 
you lot are making me paranoid is this a campaign to discredit the japanese makers (watanabe mentioned also) ?? hehe. Anyway I've checked mine up to light, striaght edge etc... meticulously I've no experience with knives but own many antique and high quality tools so have a very keen eye etc... and they seem fine.

I can understand the appeal of "imperfections" adding appeal to the more rustic knives it does for me as for example if any of you have handled a Granfors Bruks axe (I have m any) you'll find a traitionally made Swedish axe of the highest order (forge marks etc... left with a polished cutting face) the "imperfections" add a real appeal to them but the forging/cutting edge is of the highest order so they are fully functional tools and I guess thats the problem with these knives if the defects affect performance/functionality then indeed there is a problem. What is the consensus regarding the quality of these knives when they produce a good one!
 
Well dav, honestly I'm a big fan. I've always loved my moritaka yanagi, and my newer moritaka ks has quickly become my go to. It is a wonderful cutter. I suspect that as with other rustic style blades I've seen, the blade face is rather wavy, even diveted. Kurouchi finish masks a lot of imperfections. Maybe sometimes these blemishes that are otherwise considered character, run too close to the bevel and are causing the problem.

I sanded of the crappy finish on my tojiro ITK to reveal a roller coaster of waves on the blade face. It still works great, but it is easy to understand these problems after seeing this....
 
Dave Martell said:
Yes sir I have but I haven't seen this KS clone yet so you might get lucky with the craps table. :)
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Am I confused or aren't those KS clones I've seen getting fluffed up on other forums supposed to be hand made in the USA?
(Snort)


Dave
 
Not the moritaka. However, the U.S. distributer described the moritaka ks as having an excellent grind. Which leads me to believe maybe these issues were somehow addressed in house. I dunno.
 
I don't think either of these post (mine included) were to discredit Japanese makers, but rather to point ongoing issues that many here have experienced.
As I pointed in one of my posts, these normally won't render your knife useless (unless it's a yanagi), but people should be aware of them. Some pay good money for knives and should expect a equivalent level of quality.

It's post about Moritaka knives, however I had similar experience with Watanabe, which I used to be a huge fan of. My last Watanabe group buy, out of ten knives, three or four had over-grinds (holes) near the heel, and were not as promised in thickness, fit and finish. These were custom order knives, mind you, at premium prices.

This is a public forum and many come here for an advice. So, let's judge all makers (me included) on their merits, not on personal preferences. Constructive criticism is good, believe it or not, as it forces people to make changes.

M
 
labor of love said:
Not the moritaka. However, the U.S. distributer described the moritaka ks as having an excellent grind. Which leads me to believe maybe these issues were somehow addressed in house. I dunno.
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Haven't all Moritakas always been advertised as excellent and inspected, etc.?
 
That is the advertisement; however obviously these issues still seem to occur. The one I had certainly had nothing like the photo describe so I won the crap shoot apparently.
 
Marko I didn't put a smiley after my comments but a hehe, which mean't that it was partly said in jest, although a little bit of me did wonder. I've not had a duff knife off of either maker (Only just getting into this whole thing) so obviously can't speak from experience. Also I guess for me and my very limited lack of culinary skills a knife would have to be pretty bad to make much difference, Doesn't a serrated edge cut well anyway:biggrin:

I guess its an interesting subject though as there is obviously a reason for the high number of defects of which a skilled smith(?) is either denying not recognising or accepting for whatever reason for a knife at a certain price point. And all from a country who were the first true adopters of TQM!
 
I think we have to recognize that many Japanese makers are under pressure to produce in volume, in part because of the competition, and in part because of the wholesale system in Japan, where a large part of the final price is added by middlemen (wholesellers, vendors), so what a maker gets for his knives is just a fraction for what they sell.

Quality work takes time and unless one can get a fair price for it, one won't make any money doing it.

M

PS: I am sympathetic to all parties here.
 
Yes I appreciate that and it must be a hard thing to balance sometimes, but Moritaka does sell directly as does Takeda and Watanabe (amongst others) but seems to come in for the most criticism so there is obviously something going on. Maybe even though he is a small producer he might have overstretched operations maybe he needs to go for an eye test:biggrin:
 
FWIW, I have a recent KS that's been on the stones a couple times and it has no problems whatsoever. Magnificent knife!

(I have experienced a hole in a well-known maker's gyuto, so I know what it looks like. I was able to grind it out.)
 
maxim said:
I think the problem here is mistaken with uneven grind, Its not !
It is not like on Yanagis or wide bevel knives that have uneven grinds or low spots. That you can fix.
But problem with Moritake is more complex.
It is like the hard steel (hagane) on the knife is bend in and if you try flatten the bevel that spot get more steel removal and creates a big hole in the edge.

On Yanagis or other knives there are just low spots that can be fixed with flattening, and they are usually only on cladding.
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I know exactly what youre saying Maxim, I have one of those on my Masamoto Yanagi.

Its only on the core steel, its like little concave on one side of it, and convex en the other. So when you sharpen in that situation you make overgrind yourself.
Unfortunately I havent found solution yet. I know its impossible to fix with a hammer. Or bendingstick
 
You know, none of this means you shouldn't buy one. Just be ready to return it if its bad, most of them appear fine.

You can always do your own QC. I had a pocket knife like that...4 out of 5 closed by hitting the scales with thee edge. I still wanna buy another one.
 
labor of love said:
The largest united states vendor of moritaka knives guaranteed me a full refund if I was unhappy for any reason with my purchase.
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Did he say you could return it several years down the road, when you discovered it?
 
Yeah. Pretty funny. I'm sure moritaka isn't the only company around that wouldnt allow the return of a 3 year old knife. Even if it has a defect.
 
Sorry, was not trying to be flippant.

Just that tk59 makes a very good point-- that this knife apparently is prone to have an inherent defect that may not even show (at least to an unskilled eye) til down the road...
 
Like I said earlier, I'm no fan of moritaka. The ks clone was calling my name. I'm glad I got a chance to test out both the ks profile and augami super steel. I'll never purchase another moritaka. But I'm happy with this purchase.
 
I want to make something clear - in all cases that I've seen these knives are not repairable in any normal sense of the term. If a repair is possible it could only be made by grinding down the entire side(s) of the knife to match the lowest part of the overgrind as well as re-profiling. A repair of this size is nearly the same as grinding a knife by using the stock removal method - it's a major job. No one - I repeat - no one is doing this repair to a Moritaka using waterstones.

To clarify even further, the hole in the edge is sloppy grinding from the sides of the blade just above the edge (not from overgrinding the edge itself) that gets deeper and deeper as you remove steel from the edge while sharpening. This is not the same thing as seen on yanagis and other similar (to Moritaka) ground knives such as Takeda, etc. In fact the only knives that I've ever seen this specific problem on (in quantity) are Moritakas and (as a group) custom US kitchen knife makers who use 2" wide belts. This is not a common problem from Japanese makers.
 
labor of love said:
Like I said earlier, I'm no fan of moritaka. The ks clone was calling my name. I'm glad I got a chance to test out both the ks profile and augami super steel. I'll never purchase another moritaka. But I'm happy with this purchase.
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I think the point is not every knife is messed up, but maybe 1 out of 7-10. There are plenty of people out there without defective Moritakas. But I don't like the odds of spending $200+ with a chance that it might be messed up down the road. I don't think it says a lot about a company that admits there is a problem but tells you to suck it up and deal with it if you knife's bad. I would rather do business with a company that strives to put out a perfect knife each and every time.
 
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