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Johnsmyname

Johnsmyname

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Hi all, I am new to whetstones, but not sharpening or metal in general. Have worked in CNC manufacturing and also keep my German knives sharp with an electric wheel and honing rods. Now that I'm getting more into Japanese I naturally need to start getting into better sharpening practices for longevity and performance of the blades. I will be mostly sharpening Japanese knives, but will use it for German too. Steels include but not limited to X50CrMoV15, VG10, SG2, SKD12, SV35VN and White #1.

I could use some help making sure my choices for a starting kit make sense to those with more experience. I know 1000 is the recommended starting stone, but I'm leaning towards a 2000 instead. I keep all my knives sharp and will only be cleaning up edges mostly. If I do friends blades that are chipped I can run them through the electric Chefs Mate and quickly grind them to a clean 20 or 15 deg edge and just refine on 2000 stone from there. I don't really have a budget, but I'm fine with anything <$500 USD so if something is nice to have, I'd rather make the experience easier/nicer to start. That said, I don't want to get things that will be wasted. Also, I want to keep it splash-and-go as these will be stored in a closet and pulled out as need for avid home cook use.

Currently thinking...
  • Atoma #400 (mostly for lapping, but if I need something coarse it has double duty).
  • Naniwa Pro 2000 (this seems a good grit for getting a decent edge pretty nice again)
Other stones I considered include Shapton Pro 1500 or 2000 and Cerax 1000/3000 combo, but people seem to report very positive feedback with the Naniwa's. Only concerns I have with a 2000 is if/when I get more stones, it seems like an oddly spaced number, like 1000 and 5000 would be better at that point. Also will my softer German steel be happy on 2000 as that seems to be the limit for 56-58 hrc? Lastly, I'm thinking I'll skip the stone holder and stropping stuff until I get the stone work down pat. Nothing there I can't achieve with some wet towels and old jeans or newspapers.

Any other tips or thoughts are welcome too!



Edit: Updated below with current plan. Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. New plan of action is,

-Atoma 140
-Shapton G500
-SP2000 or Naniwa 2000

or alternatively…

-Atoma 140
-SG500
-SP1000
-Naniwa 3000

Somehow I went from 1 stone to 3? I think I’m starting to figure this place out. 😐
 
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Shapton Glass 500 + Shapton Pro 2000
Atoma 400 is nice to have

This will give you all the versatility you need for the steels and type of work you describe. For more serious work, you can use wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface. I use 220P and 400P all the time for major grinding prior to switching to stones. I would not sharpen a knife on an atoma, that does not sound pleasant at all. Also, when things get dull to the point that you need more than a simple touch up, you will really appreciate having something lower than a 2000grit stone.

Also, I would highly advise against running knives through an electric as a first step, since those often will change your knife profile, and then you need to fix it anyways by hand on something coarse. Instead, as I mentioned, you can use 220P or even 120P sandpaper to do the geometry modifications needed prior to actual thinning and sharpening. When using sandpaper, expect to go through it fast. Maybe 2 or 3 full passes on each blade side, and then swap to a new piece.
 
Johnsmyname said:
This is helpful, thanks guys.

For the Shapton glass vs rockstar, only difference is thickness and glass backing? What's the benefit of the backing?
Click to expand...
Some debate on whether they are exactly the same, but regardless they are very similar. They I have the SG500 and RS2000 and they are both great.

You could also throw a Shapton pro 220 in the cart for extra coarse work. Bonus, it comes with a case/stone holder that will fit two SG/RS stones making for a very convenient on the go set.
 
First question: Soakers or Splash and Go?

The soakers have better feedback, more fun to use, a bit more involved. The soaking is the easy part, drying is more difficult. The S&G are more "wham, bam, thank you ma'am". Not much too it but in the end the knives are just as sharp. Easy to set up, rinse off when done.

For soakers I still start with a S&G low grit, the SG500+ or if you want to reach a bit the Gesshin 800 (Japanese Knife Imports) diamond plate is excellent. Once the first burr is made and removed then the Gesshin 2000 and then G4000 or G6000 to finish. This is my set for my "good" knives.

For S&G, I'm another Shapton fan. SG500x, will get everyone off to a good start. If you like SP (and I do as well) the SP1000 and SP2000 work well together to sharpen and finish a gyuto/petty/suji. The 1000 will bring up a burr quickly - more so than the 1000 rating suggests. The 2000 will finish nicely, closer to a 3 or 4000 stone. The SG series also works well, SG500+, SG1000, SG4000 is my favorite setup for Shun and Shun Lite - all belonging to friends of course as well as my own stainless knives.

A 3rd option is to go full stupid and do it all with Jnats. The "zen" of knife sharpening for the low price of a Ferrari...

FWIW - If you're going to go Shapton, and I would, the stones and stone holder from this thread are worth a look.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...n-glass-stones-stone-holder-price-drop.67949/
 
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Johnsmyname said:
This is helpful, thanks guys.

For the Shapton glass vs rockstar, only difference is thickness and glass backing? What's the benefit of the backing?
Click to expand...
The rockstar is a recently added line. Previously if you wanted a shapton 500, you had to go to the glass line. If they perform similarly, I'd personally go with whichever is cheaper. The glass itself is just a backing for the actual sharpening abrasive, so it doesn't provide any special performance characteristics I can think of.
 
It seems everyone is a big fan of the SP2000, but have you guys tried the Naniwa Pro 2000 as a direct comparison? I've read the grit rating is a little closer to "true" and it gives very smooth and nice feedback feeling.
 
So for first stones and general home use I like soakers vs S&G. S&G requires some level of maintenance as well

1. less likely to mess up the stone by forgetting to dry it off immediately (i've ruined a stone by just leaving water on the stone and walking away for days.
2. they seem more durable in my experience with accidental impacts
3. water management on the stone feels easier, especially for sharpening
4. i'm not in a rush, i can dunk in water, go wash dishes come back and sharpen, dry in open shelf.
5. soakers feel better which i think directly allows me to get a much better edge than on a S&G stone (bring it on kkf)

For Soakers I would 100% go with Cerax 800 + Ouka. you can get ones fixed onto a stand so you don't need to fumble around with a holder.
 
As you may be able to infer from the responses, there is a ton of preference involved. So maybe pick up a few things in different lines and see what you prefer.

One of them should be the Shapton Glass 500, though. It's dead useful. I know a 500 grit stone sounds pretty coarse, but in practice, with light pressure, it can put an edge on that is really all you need in a lot of cases. A bit more pressure, and you've got a perfect setup for small chips or neglected knives.
 
It sounds like you’re on a great starting path actually. I think 500-2k is totally good for the steels you mentioned. Stropping will remove bite from the edge (in varying degrees depending on how you do it - towels will remove a fair amount of bite). I like a cereal box folded over the stone, keeping same angle as sharpening. Helps clean the edge and maintain as much bite as I can.

I just got a naniwa pro 2k for razors. It’s more of a polishing stone, and a soaker. My goal for razors is shallower scratches and more polish. In the kitchen I tend to like quicker cutting and more bite. The gesshin 2k from Japanese Knife Imports is an amazing stone but also a soaker. Leaves tons and tons of bite and cuts quickly, as fast as a 1k. If you had a locking Tupperware you could keep it in the closet soaking. Not cheap, but I’ll happily stand behind the recommendation if you only wanted one stone.

If you want bang for buck, That Shapton glass set is a good deal, and will cover all the ground you’ll need for quite a while, all S&G. They leave good bite, the handful I’ve used. Hard, and will take time to flatten when that time comes.

Shapton Pros are a bit cheaper, very hard, don’t always leave great bite. I also use one (the1.5k) for razor bevel setting because I value the ability to stay flat most of all. But they’re kind of slow and uninspiring to use in the kitchen.

Most of your steel is “conventional”, but if you eye high alloy modern steel like Magnacut in the future, strongly consider a 1k diamond stone (not plate). But that’s for another day.
 
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If I were to have only one stone, it would probably be a naniwa pro 400.

It is coarse enough to put a new edge on a dull knife, but if you use it with very light pressure you can get a knife to shave hair. It gives good feedback, especially on carbon steel knives. And it's very very slow dishing. Will probably last you a lifetime.

Also, if you want to add another stone, a naniwa pro 3k will be an amazing finisher. (can't comment on the naniwa pro 2k since I don't have that stone.)
 
I am fairly new to this game as well and first went soakers 220,400,1000,3000,6000. Then I got a bunch of different pastes and strops. Next came the jnats, bbw, ect. Most recently diamonds Venev 150,240,400,800.
If I was to start over with just 2, I would get one coarse stone and one fine stone, both splash and go. I love the feedback of soakers, but barely use them anymore because I can grab a Venev, sharpen my knife and then finish on a BBW. The whole process is about 5 minutes tops and usually only includes 2 stones. I think the recommendations for Shapton 500/2000 is what I would do if I had to do it all over. Stones are like pistachios though, good luck only having 1 or 2.
 
Shapton glass/rockstar 500 and Naniwa Pro/Chosera 800 are excellent stones in this regard.

Shapton Pro 1k/1.5/2k and Naniwa Pro 2k are well reviewed and would be a good choice also.

Much of the differences in recommendations are personal preference rather than one being clearly better than another. Some prefer softer or harder stones, more or less friability, even acoustics etc.. You can't go wrong with any of those ones.

For softer stainless I personally prefer 500-1000 grit over anything finer.

Atoma 400 would work for flattening, however the coarser Atoma 140 is generally recommended. A plate used for flattening only will last a very long time. It will wear much faster if used for double duty. If heavy work is required could be better to get a cheap coarse stone like the "pink brick" or Norton coarse.
 
For lapping whetstones:
  • Atoma 140 or 400
Coarse:
  • Naniwa Pro 400
  • Shapton Glass 500
Medium grit:
  • Naniwa Pro 800
  • Naniwa Pro 1000
  • Naniwa Pro 3000 (for edge finishing)
Fine grit:

Here we enter natural stones territory but you can try some synthetics like:
  • Arashiyama 6k
  • Naniwa Snow White 8k
Naturals:

I started with Aizu for edge finishing (around 4k).

Down the road, you will adapt to your skills and tastes. It’s gonna be a long journey. An expensive one!

Good luck!
 
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Johnsmyname said:
Cerax 1000/3000 combo
Click to expand...


This is what I would get. It happened to be the first waterstone I had (by chance rather than design), and though I’ve owned probably nearing 1000 whetstones since - it’s still what I regularly recommend for a starter stone. Just astonishingly good.

Other things I like and use a lot in the same vein; King 800, King 1200, SP1K. If you’re just looking at sharpening the latter is really superb.
 
Emieloss said:
"Stones are like pistachios" that's a good one! haha:D

BBW (belgian blue) is also an amazing stone. agreed! It's the stone I finish most of my knives on.
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My favorite right now is Venev 240 to BBW. @MSicardCutlery mentioned that combo here a while ago and I really like the results. If I’m in a mood to soak, Latte 400 to Ouka 3000 is pretty awesome.
 
It's crazy how we probably all have the same result on the cutting edge but we all have different preferences! Here is my selection!

Atoma 140 - Like you said, it's super handy. Your stone will stay flat and you will have enough power to make small repairs. You can also buy the 400 grit replacement surface and glue it below your 140 grit base. Boom, an all in one system ready for natural stone 😉

Shapton Kuromaku 1k - I use this stone every day and I sharpen around 50 to 80 knives per week, only by hand. It acts more like an 800 and provides a very nice cutting edge. It wears slowly, splash and go (a little thirsty at first though) and it is even capable of doing the job on Magna Cut. Okay, with this steel it skate a bit on the surface but the job can be done with more time!

Naniwa 3k - My favourite finisher of all time! If you have a cheap steel you can only do 6 passes with stropping motion for good deburring. For quality steel, you're going to have a super silky cut. I never go higher than 3k except for yanagiba or special request. Naniwa 3k is a buy me once purchase 👌

Bonus stone, Naniwa 400 - This stone is awesome and can do great things. The feeling/feedback is really nice and the scratch pattern is very homogeneous. You can repair small chips in no time and this is my favourite stone for bevel shaping. Definitely my second favorite Naniwa stone.

Whatever the choice, have fun!
 
I have used the Chosera/Naniwa Pro 800 to Chosera/Naniwa Pro 3k progression on all steels you have mentioned with very satisfactory results. The 800 is really a wonderful stone, I much prefer it to my shapton glass 1k; it finishes more fine than the number suggests but doesn't have any issue forming a burr on SG2 or S35VN. I haven't tried the Chosera/NP 2k but from what I've read around it isn't as well-liked as the 3k, which still leaves me plenty of refined tooth and is where I stop for most good stainless.

Your German steel will be happy as a clam on Chosera 800. The Chosera 800 to BBW deburr is also a nice jump.
 
I only have a handful of stones compared to many here. The three I use most often are SG500, SG4000, and atoma 140. Of those, the SG4000 gets the most use by far, mainly because I do light touchups probably 90% of the time when I get a stone out. The SG500 is used for setting a new bevel or very minor thinning.

You could sub a Shapton pro or glass 2k instead of the 4k, depending on your personal preference. I have an SG1k which I rarely use now, and a couple coarse stones which are really only used for heavy thinning. If you go with Shapton, I highly recommend the field stone holder as it’s really convenient to just drop stones in and swap out without having to mess with screws or clamps; it’s also a perfect fit for the nanohone diamond resins.
 
Many good choices and options, much of it is about personal preference so perfect advice is impossible.

What I like about the ShaptonPro 1000 & 2000 is that they are affordable and can cut many kinds of steel. Plus they are consistantly highly rated.

It is a good way to start and then find out what you like/don't like and progress from there (coarser, finer, toothier, faster, slower, different sharpening feel, soakers, naturals, etc.).
 
I have bought 3 Shapton Glass 500s and 2 2ks. The only synthetics I have bought multiples of on purpose. I did somehow end up with 2 Shapton Pro 12ks and I won't tell you how many crystolons and India's. You can't go wrong with the Cerax or Chosera stones either. I just prefer the splash and go no nonsense of the glass series. And I actually really like the Naniwa Super Stone 2k as well. But I am one of the few that will mention that out loud. The super stones tend to glaze after every three strokes. The key to keeping them clean and cutting is a green scotchbrite nagura. Then they work great. And are remarkably slow to dish despite being very easy to gouge.
 
stringer said:
But I am one of the few that will mention that out loud. The super stones tend to glaze after every three strokes.
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My favourite setup for polishing! Like you said the surface burnish in less than 20 seconds, which is super handy for mirror polishing. I have the 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k and they all glaze like crazy. But the "chalky" feeling is so nice.
 
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