what an ugly a$$ knife, who ever bought it probably doesn't cook their own food anyway.
New Kramer Auction
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rami_m
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Agree.
I don't think that Mr. Kramer is claiming that you 'can't' do it, and in fact, I can't give you a source of the verbiage. That being said, if you sell a knife that Mr. Kramer agreed to specifically make for you (at a rate lower than what an auction knife sells for) and you go sell it on eBay for $10K more, why would he ever make custom knives? It would be more advantageous for him to close his books and simply sell knives at his auction.
Mr. Kramer donates 10% of the final amount to a charity:
* Feeding America
* Heifer International - Pass on the Gift
* World Vision
* GRuB - Garden Raised Bounty
* Kiva
* Infinity Culinary Training
* Habitat for Humanity
* Feeding America
* Heifer International - Pass on the Gift
* World Vision
* GRuB - Garden Raised Bounty
* Kiva
* Infinity Culinary Training
* Habitat for Humanity
I'm going to stir the pot.
Okay, Let's forget its Bob Kramer for a moment and apply this argument to any other popular custom knife maker. Why is reselling a custom knife made by Bill Burke or Michael Rader or Devin Thomas acceptable but a Kramer not?
Why is does being Bob Kramer make it different? I don't get it? Is it because he is Bob Kramer and him doing something custom for me is a privilege. A privilege, I am still paying thousands of dollars for. I being lucky enough to get selected means I cannot resell a knife because Bob Kramer did it for me and he could get thousands more. If this is true then I would say its a fairly narcissistic view of himself and his status. Your right then he should just stop custom orders and get top dollar for his knives through an auction, so he doesn't have to worry about resale.
You're arguing with yourself here, bub. No matter what people agree to; they'll still get that knife, realize it doesn't cut any better than other knives, and sell it for more than they paid for it. You can't change human nature.
If any knifemaker had the same supply/demand issues as Mr. Kramer I doubt they would sell their knives at a discounted market price just for the sake of giving people the opportunity to purchase a knife.
If any knifemaker had the same supply/demand issues as Mr. Kramer I doubt they would sell their knives at a discounted market price just for the sake of giving people the opportunity to purchase a knife.
Not sure if this was directed a me or not but there is no argument here just a point of view. I believe you posted
All I was saying, is if the above is true and he feels we are violating a principle by reselling his knives for profit, then don't sell your custom knives for less than your auction knives or like you stated close your custom book. The problem is solved. I would think its fairly egotistical of him to feel that way. Why is selling a Kramer on the secondary market so much worse than selling another custom makers knife? What is so different about owning a custom Kramer that it would put you on his bad side if you sold it? As you said it cuts like any other knife. Just seems silly selling a knife you acquired from him would put you on his bad side.
Salty dog
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I was one who sold one at a nice profit. I also sold another to a friend at cost who in turn sold it at a profit.
After waiting for over three years I felt I could do anything with them I wanted.
I sold the knife partly because I was disenchanted with the process and maker.
I turned around and bought other knives with the money.
Yes, sometimes I regret it. (Some civilian in NYC may have the best knife Kramer ever made)
After waiting for over three years I felt I could do anything with them I wanted.
I sold the knife partly because I was disenchanted with the process and maker.
I turned around and bought other knives with the money.
Yes, sometimes I regret it. (Some civilian in NYC may have the best knife Kramer ever made)
At the expense of catching a lot of fire here and probably going off topic and on a tangent over an issue that should have been closed; I want to consider what are profits and capitalism; considering that a good part of the US is built on and has become what it is now as a result, whether you like it, agree with it or not. And to be fair we must consider it both ways; if you had invested in stocks 10 years ago and these went up 1000% you probably would be a very happy camper.
In a market system the forces and interaction of supply and demand for each commodity determines what and how much to produce. Prices are the reflection of the scarce resource and prices are determined by the interaction of demand and supply. In a market system, prices are a communicational system through which producers and consumers carry out their decisions.
Consider simple things you buy such as wine in a fine dining establishment; sometimes marked up to 300%. Bottled water, up to 4000% mark upk; designer eye glasses have up to 1000% mark ups; a few week ago I was in a NY hotel and saw the cost of a pack of gummy bears in the room's bar; it had a 1,324% mark up vs the same pack in the CVS down the street. Take the most extreme of examples; over the counter drugs, marked up 200-3000%; when you consider just the cost of active ingredients in the pills, the markup can amount to 600,000 percent. If we were to calculate the true retail cost of the Kramer, which is what I believe we are arguing here, let us say $1,500 and it sold for over $30 K, this is a little over 2,000% mark up, give or take.
Profits are without doubt the key driving force in a capitalist economy. No respectable entrepreneur would try to sell goods or services were they not to make some sort of profit out of it, economies that are, of course, founded on the profit motive.
Perhaps we are not so much as passing judgement on Mr.Kramer because he can get this kind of money for his knives, and honestly we could applaud him; but instead, I think some of us here have a problem with the fact that other makers are not out to make this kind of money and rather just make excellent knives at expected retail costs, hell, in some cases undervalued and they just simply enjoy doing them - and a lot of us here are fortunate to enjoy these.
Just my thoughts
In a market system the forces and interaction of supply and demand for each commodity determines what and how much to produce. Prices are the reflection of the scarce resource and prices are determined by the interaction of demand and supply. In a market system, prices are a communicational system through which producers and consumers carry out their decisions.
Consider simple things you buy such as wine in a fine dining establishment; sometimes marked up to 300%. Bottled water, up to 4000% mark upk; designer eye glasses have up to 1000% mark ups; a few week ago I was in a NY hotel and saw the cost of a pack of gummy bears in the room's bar; it had a 1,324% mark up vs the same pack in the CVS down the street. Take the most extreme of examples; over the counter drugs, marked up 200-3000%; when you consider just the cost of active ingredients in the pills, the markup can amount to 600,000 percent. If we were to calculate the true retail cost of the Kramer, which is what I believe we are arguing here, let us say $1,500 and it sold for over $30 K, this is a little over 2,000% mark up, give or take.
Profits are without doubt the key driving force in a capitalist economy. No respectable entrepreneur would try to sell goods or services were they not to make some sort of profit out of it, economies that are, of course, founded on the profit motive.
Perhaps we are not so much as passing judgement on Mr.Kramer because he can get this kind of money for his knives, and honestly we could applaud him; but instead, I think some of us here have a problem with the fact that other makers are not out to make this kind of money and rather just make excellent knives at expected retail costs, hell, in some cases undervalued and they just simply enjoy doing them - and a lot of us here are fortunate to enjoy these.
Just my thoughts
Good posts Anton and cheesit.
I cannot believe people are suggesting Bob is egotistical or a "whiney baby". I've been around these forums for about 7-8 years now and it's always the same BS. So when I ordered my two knives I spoke with Bob on the phone and we discussed the current market. He is very concerned (this was 4 years ago) about the secondary market inflating his prices, and people taking advantage of him not raising his price to match the market. Read that again, he has kept the prices of his knives WELL BELOW market value. He is one man, he can only make so many at the level of quality his name possesses. Anyone that is an artist or passionate about something knows that when they make something for someone, they want that result to be enjoyed and respected, not whored out. That's Bob. Say all the negative things you want about the man, I applaud his restraint. As probably the most famous knife maker in the world, the man lives pretty frugal. How many people at the top of their game live that way?
Many Kramer owners like myself are not rich or lucky, we were in the right place at the right time. If I had a nickel for every time I realized most life happens this way.
I cannot believe people are suggesting Bob is egotistical or a "whiney baby". I've been around these forums for about 7-8 years now and it's always the same BS. So when I ordered my two knives I spoke with Bob on the phone and we discussed the current market. He is very concerned (this was 4 years ago) about the secondary market inflating his prices, and people taking advantage of him not raising his price to match the market. Read that again, he has kept the prices of his knives WELL BELOW market value. He is one man, he can only make so many at the level of quality his name possesses. Anyone that is an artist or passionate about something knows that when they make something for someone, they want that result to be enjoyed and respected, not whored out. That's Bob. Say all the negative things you want about the man, I applaud his restraint. As probably the most famous knife maker in the world, the man lives pretty frugal. How many people at the top of their game live that way?
Many Kramer owners like myself are not rich or lucky, we were in the right place at the right time. If I had a nickel for every time I realized most life happens this way.
I just hope my name gets picked one of these days. 2 years on his list I believe. And I'll wait even more without a doubt. But in the end, no matter how old I am when I get that call, I'll still pee my pants. In the meantime, I'll still enjoy my ZK's and shun Meiji.
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Marc, are you on his list or in the lottery?
I think you only get on the list if you are picked in the lottery, unless you got on the list prior to the lottery starting.
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Very well said although I disagree somewhat on the drug example. As a bio-tech investor sometimes I am made painfully aware that to bring a drug to market takes close to 10 years of research and trials. Many fail after companies spend 100's of millions of dollars on them. So while the actual cost to make the drug, once approved by the FDA can be less than $100 per dose and sometime much less, this bears little relationship on the price charged because these companies need to cover not only the 100's of millions spent on that drug , but of all the other drugs they were testing but failed.
The ACC will make things interesting because the government will not be able to afford these prices, so I think in 3-5 years we will see drug companies forced by the feds to lower the prices they charge, which will of course have the unintended consequence of reducing the supply of new drugs, unless they are also willing to reduce the regulatory burden.
The ACC will make things interesting because the government will not be able to afford these prices, so I think in 3-5 years we will see drug companies forced by the feds to lower the prices they charge, which will of course have the unintended consequence of reducing the supply of new drugs, unless they are also willing to reduce the regulatory burden.
Just to clairfy, I am passing no judgement about Bob Kramer. I don't know the guy, haven't met him, don't know what he is thinking. I was just saying if what cheezit posted originally is TRUE about getting being on Kramer's bad side if you sold a custom, it begs to question why he would feel that way. If it was about ego then that's silly. You obviously know him better than I do.
I am all for Kramer charging whatever he wants low or high. Its great his demand is so great he can pull 30K+ per knife. He's worked hard to make his brand what it is so there is no reason why he can't reap the benefits. It honestly doesn't matter if he lives frugal or flashy. He's earned it and it doesn't reflect on what kind of person he is.
I'll stop kicking the dead horse.
I don't think Bob would be happy if you bought one and turned it around for profit, but there would be nothing he could do about it other than not making another for you. Like that matters, most people in line will probably not get one in their lifetime, let alone another one. Like most artists, he wants you to enjoy his creation, not whore it out. I can understand that. Also, he doesn't sell a knife for $30K, the bidders sell each other the knife for $30K. If only one person bidded, it would be sold at the reserve price, probably what he charges per inch. No one becomes a knife maker to get rich, he was the one exception. No way any knifemaker out there would turn down the ability to have his commercial success.
This is almost exactly what I typed out in a response, but I decided I'm too new to say something so strong. I agree with you 100% and find it obtuse that others are having difficult seeing the perspective.
orangehero
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What is it that makes his knives such high brow artistic creations compared to a number of other custom kitchen knife makers that arguably make better knives from both a functional and aesthetic perspective?
Maybe it's just a smart marketing move to keep those high dollar auctions rolling. The people who pay that price maybe don't know much about how a kitchen knife should function, but they can feel better since look, Kramer blesses the plebs with his knives that must obviously function better than anything else at that price.
There are art knives that it is hard to argue are not worth their price, I just don't see how the knife in that photo is worth $30k.
Maybe it's just a smart marketing move to keep those high dollar auctions rolling. The people who pay that price maybe don't know much about how a kitchen knife should function, but they can feel better since look, Kramer blesses the plebs with his knives that must obviously function better than anything else at that price.
There are art knives that it is hard to argue are not worth their price, I just don't see how the knife in that photo is worth $30k.
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Its just eyecandy. Again, im sure its performance is on par with stuff that retails around $300.
orangehero
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Not at that price for that knife. I haven't read the articles that made Kramer blow up, but I figure those bidders are paying for the mystique, whether it's for performance or whatever else.
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It aint performance. Its just expensive art.
DevinT
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A few years ago I went to an eye specialist, he asked me what I did for a living. I told him that I made knives. He asked if I knew a guy named Bob Kramer, of course I said. He then told that he wanted one of Bob's knives. I told him that he might be interested in some of my knives, he politely declined.
Hoss
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In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have.
Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is not people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.
Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is not people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.
i would much rather have an aston martin over a lambo!!
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