New to sharpening and need help...

[JASinIL2006]

I'm pretty new to sharpening and I'm struggling a bit with my technique. I could really use some advice.

I picked up a Daovua 240 mm gyuto to use as a practice knife, and I've been using SG500 and SP2000 stones for sharpening. I've been using Peter Nowlan's Knife Planet school series as my guide. To dull the knife before sharpening, I've been rubbing it on the edge of a 320 stone until the edge is dull. When sharpening, I've been keeping the knife in my right hand and flipping it over (rather than switching hands) and using edge trailing strokes.

My problem (well, the biggest one, anyway) right now is that I'm having a very difficult time maintaining constant contact between the blade and the stone when sharpening the right side of the blade. I seem to be catching the edges of the stone (rocking the blade, I suppose) much more than when I'm sharpening the left side of the blade. In the pictures below, you can see the sharpie marks on the right side show I'm all over the place in making contact with the stone, while the left side picture shows only a nice, think line of contact at the edge.

I figure there has to be something screwy with my technique when sharpening the right side of the blade. Any ideas - other than 'keep practicing' - to help me find a more consistent stroke on the right side?

The only encouraging thing right now is that I'm actually starting to get a knife that's sharper than when I started. (That sadly was not the case on my first few attempts...) After my most recent session, the knife actually cut cleanly and smoothly through both printer paper and phone book paper, for pretty much the entire length of the blade. (Right at the heal was a bit grabbier, but even that cut cleanly.) The blade also cut some small carrots nicely; this is a fairly stout knife and it tends to wedge a fair amount; this was much more noticeable in the front 1/3 of the blade compared to the middle and back portions. (I'm assuming that may be partly due to my inability to hold my sharpening angle consistently the length of the blade?)

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to get my stroke on the right side a bit more consistent and level to the stone? I'd like to get this down a bit more before I try putting some of my better knives to the stones.

Thanks!

 

[ian]

My problem (well, the biggest one, anyway) right now is that I'm having a very difficult time maintaining constant contact between the blade and the stone when sharpening the right side of the blade. I seem to be catching the edges of the stone (rocking the blade, I suppose) much more than when I'm sharpening the left side of the blade. In the pictures below, you can see the sharpie marks on the right side show I'm all over the place in making contact with the stone, while the left side picture shows only a nice, think line of contact at the edge.

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to get my stroke on the right side a bit more consistent and level to the stone? I'd like to get this down a bit more before I try putting some of my better knives to the stones.

Hmmm, where are you left hand fingers pressing? I could maybe imagine that you're pressing too high up the blade, with too much force, or with more of a forward motion when you're sharpening the right side of the blade. That would cause the blade to wobble as you go back and forth. That's at least one thing that really changes if you flip sides, since on the left side the edge will be away from you and your fingers won't tend to push the knife angle down as much. Otherwise, try to lock your wrist and use large muscles more than small muscles if possible. Also, try to feel the bevel contact the stones. It's easier to react to feeling than to visual feedback about the angle you're holding.

It's also possible that you're using a shallower angle on the right side, which makes it hard not to scuff the rest of the bevel. In particular, if the blade is asymmetrically ground for a righty and you use the same spine height over the stone to determine the angle on both sides, the bevel you create on the right side will be closer in angle to the wide bevel than it is on the left side, making it easier to scuff the rest of the blade. Maybe this paragraph is more likely to apply than the first, actually.

 

[Benuser]

Not sure it has to do with your technique: both sides aren't identical. Often the right one is convex, the left one flatter. Doing exactly the same with both sides won't lead to identical bevels. By the way, there's no reason they should be.

 

[Delat]

Assuming you're not seeing under grinds, you might try increasing the angle of attack. That is, instead of the tip pointing towards 10:00 have it point towards 11:00. That'll give you more blade surface in contact with the stone at once for stability, then you move your left hand further up the blade as you need to change the pressure point. Also try keeping your left hand closer to the edge.

You might also try pointing your index finger along the blade, and position it so that it's in contact with the stone. That can help with maintaining an angle as it forms a reference point at least for back half of the edge.

Also closely watch your right hand as you're sharpening, and you may see it dipping and rising. I have a tendency to dip at the end of a push and rise at the end of a pull. Knowing I do it and seeing it helps me to counteract it. Recently I realized that shorter strokes helps to negate that tendency, so you might try that as well.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Hmmm, where are you left hand fingers pressing? I could maybe imagine that you're pressing too high up the blade, with too much force, or with more of a forward motion when you're sharpening the right side of the blade. That would cause the blade to wobble as you go back and forth. That's at least one thing that really changes if you flip sides, since on the left side the edge will be away from you and your fingers won't tend to push the knife angle down as much. Otherwise, try to lock your wrist and use large muscles more than small muscles if possible. Also, try to feel the bevel contact the stones. It's easier to react to feeling than to visual feedback about the angle you're holding.

My left hand fingers are pretty close to the edge being sharpened, but I think you're probably right about applying to much pressure with my fingers on the pushing strokes away from me when sharpening the right side. Controlling my pressure with the left hand is something I'm still not very good at. As I think about it, I might be getting a bit 'wristy', too, when sharpening that side.

It's also possible that you're using a shallower angle on the right side, which makes it hard not to scuff the rest of the bevel. In particular, if the blade is asymmetrically ground for a righty and you use the same spine height over the stone to determine the angle on both sides, the bevel you create on the right side will be closer in angle to the wide bevel than it is on the left side, making it easier to scuff the rest of the blade. Maybe this paragraph is more likely to apply than the first, actually.

I am pretty sure my angle is not terribly consistent yet. I have some of those plastic wedges and I've been shooting for about 12 degrees. I honestly am not sure about assymetry... I've been assuming the blade has a 50/50 grind, but it's not really a highly refined knife, so I'm unsure.

Thanks for the reply; you've given me some things to think about (and to try).

 

[JASinIL2006]

Assuming you're not seeing under grinds, you might try increasing the angle of attack. That is, instead of the tip pointing towards 10:00 have it point towards 11:00. That'll give you more blade surface in contact with the stone at once for stability, then you move your left hand further up the blade as you need to change the pressure point. Also try keeping your left hand closer to the edge.

You might also try pointing your index finger along the blade, and position it so that it's in contact with the stone. That can help with maintaining an angle as it forms a reference point at least for back half of the edge.

Also closely watch your right hand as you're sharpening, and you may see it dipping and rising. I have a tendency to dip at the end of a push and rise at the end of a pull. Knowing I do it and seeing it helps me to counteract it. Recently I realized that shorter strokes helps to negate that tendency, so you might try that as well.

Thanks, that is helpful. I think comment about my right hand dipping is probably correct; I think I have more wrist action than I should, which is maybe involved in the dipping/rising.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Not sure it has to do with your technique: both sides aren't identical. Often the right one is convex, the left one flatter. Doing exactly the same with both sides won't lead to identical bevels. By the way, there's no reason they should be.

I think the part I was most aware of was my 'wobbling' on the right side, although I hadn't really considered the sides being different and leading to different bevels. The part I'm most aware of is feeling the blade riding or catching the edges of the stones (what I call a wobble). If the right side is more convex, would that contribute to my failure to keep even contact with the stone?

 

[ian]

The part I'm most aware of is feeling the blade riding or catching the edges of the stones (what I call a wobble). If the right side is more convex, would that contribute to my failure to keep even contact with the stone?

You might check to see if the blade is straight. If it bends toward the right a bit, you’ll feel the catching on the edge of the stone thing when you sharpen the right side, but not the left. Wouldn’t be so surprising with a Dao Vua.

 

[IsoJ]

It is DaoVua and the one that I have, it wouldn't be impossible if the edge isn't straight with yours either. Good thing is, if the edge isn't straight, the blade bends easily, so with little effort you can straighten it. The grind is awful inconsistent in mine, propably the worst that I have seen, so I wouldn't pay attention what is happening +10mm behind the edge for now and just focus of getting clean and sharp edge.

 

[Benuser]

I think the part I was most aware of was my 'wobbling' on the right side, although I hadn't really considered the sides being different and leading to different bevels. The part I'm most aware of is feeling the blade riding or catching the edges of the stones (what I call a wobble). If the right side is more convex, would that contribute to my failure to keep even contact with the stone?

No, I don't think so. But don't worry about bevels being equal or not. At the same angle, the bevel on the convex side will be wider.
If you have troubles in keeping even contact with the stone, the blade may be far too thick, which is often the case with neglected ones. Or the angle too low and you don't reach the edge. You only remove steel behind the edge, which is fine, but not what you're aiming for at this point.
What might be helpful at this stage, is a reference for the angle. If the wedges you're currently using are fixed to the blade, they will cause problems at the belly and tip. I made pieces of wood or cork, cut at an angle corresponding to some standard sharpening angles, say 8 degrees for a back bevel, 12 , 15 and 18 for the final one. The absolute value isn't all that interesting: it's about keeping a constant angle and verifying when it becomes more difficult. At the beginning you may want to verify every stroke by laying the blade on that piece of wood or cork, to fix your wrist. Later on, you will use it only at the beginning. Even later, you will hardly use it any longer. As you now feel uncertain about keeping the sharpening angle it may help.
Another suggestion, if you don't mind: you already use a sharpie to make sure where you're actually abrading steel. It's an excellent tool. However, it happens that you raise a burr, but the very edge, where the bevels are supposed to meet, hasn't yet been reached. Strange, because the ink seems to be gone. If you were to look at it with a loupe you would see there still is a tiny line of ink. So, the burr occurred before the very edge was reached. There's no fresh edge, and you're only accumulating debris on top of the old edge. So, get a loupe, say 8x-12x. Perhaps you have a standard lens from a SLR camera. It works as well. Use the front lens as an occular, so turn it around.
After this severe text, above all, have fun!

 

[Delat]

What might be helpful at this stage, is a reference for the angle. If the wedges you're currently using are fixed to the blade, they will cause problems at the belly and tip. I made pieces of wood or cork, cut at an angle corresponding to some standard sharpening angles, say 8 degrees for a back bevel, 12 , 15 and 18 for the final one. The absolute value isn't all that interesting: it's about keeping a constant angle and verifying when it becomes more difficult. At the beginning you may want to verify every stroke by laying the blade on that piece of wood or cork, to fix your wrist. Later on, you will use it only at the beginning. Even later, you will hardly use it any longer. As you now feel uncertain about keeping the sharpening angle it may help.

I used a set of these when I first started sharpening.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4QMO7U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[JASinIL2006]

No, I don't think so. But don't worry about bevels being equal or not. At the same angle, the bevel on the convex side will be wider.
If you have troubles in keeping even contact with the stone, the blade may be far too thick, which is often the case with neglected ones. Or the angle too low and you don't reach the edge. You only remove steel behind the edge, which is fine, but not what you're aiming for at this point.
What might be helpful at this stage, is a reference for the angle. If the wedges you're currently using are fixed to the blade, they will cause problems at the belly and tip. I made pieces of wood or cork, cut at an angle corresponding to some standard sharpening angles, say 8 degrees for a back bevel, 12 , 15 and 18 for the final one. The absolute value isn't all that interesting: it's about keeping a constant angle and verifying when it becomes more difficult. At the beginning you may want to verify every stroke by laying the blade on that piece of wood or cork, to fix your wrist. Later on, you will use it only at the beginning. Even later, you will hardly use it any longer. As you now feel uncertain about keeping the sharpening angle it may help.
Another suggestion, if you don't mind: you already use a sharpie to make sure where you're actually abrading steel. It's an excellent tool. However, it happens that you raise a burr, but the very edge, where the bevels are supposed to meet, hasn't yet been reached. Strange, because the ink seems to be gone. If you were to look at it with a loupe you would see there still is a tiny line of ink. So, the burr occurred before the very edge was reached. There's no fresh edge, and you're only accumulating debris on top of the old edge. So, get a loupe, say 8x-12x. Perhaps you have a standard lens from a SLR camera. It works as well. Use the front lens as an occular, so turn it around.
After this severe text, above all, have fun!

I'll give the loupe a try to look at the sharpie line... I have one but I've not been entirely sure what I'm looking for...

The angle guides I have aren't attached to the knife; I just set them on the stone every so often to check my angle or remind me to be consistent.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[JASinIL2006]

I used a set of these when I first started sharpening.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4QMO7U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Those are exactly what I've been using. For now, they are pretty helpful!

 

[Benuser]

I'll give the loupe a try to look at the sharpie line... I have one but I've not been entirely sure what I'm looking for...

You want any ink to have gone. No ink line on top of the edge.

 

[Matt Jacobs]

you could try switching hands when you flip the knife. I started with always holding the knife in my dominant hand. I then tried switching hands and got better results. Recently I switched back to just one hand to see if I could improve and maintain more constant pressure. It is working well for me but I have to really concentrate and go slow.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Reviving this thread for an update and a question.

I have continued practicing my sharpening on the Daovua and while I've really become much better, I still have had trouble with the right side of the knife. I was still getting scuffs in the Sharpie marking similar to (but not as bad as) the first photo in post #1 above. The left side looks great, but I continued to have problems on the right. Even so, I was getting nice clean cuts both printer paper and phone book paper.

After re-reading some of the suggestions above, I started to wonder if the problem was at least partly caused by the knife and its relative lack of refinement. To check, I pulled out a better knife, a 240mm Yuki and sharpened it. I found that, while the right side was a little less consistent than the left, it nevertheless was WAY better than when I sharpened the Daovua, and I was able to get a really good edge on the Yuki. I still have some work to do, but I'm getting the basics of sharpening (holding a fairly consistent angle, raising and remove a burr, etc.).

In looking at the Daovua, I think the grind on the right side of the blade is somewhat irregular - I'd almost describe it as bit 'wavy'. This knife is also pretty chunky behind the edge (partly due to my repeated practice on it), and I'm thinking I might be ready for some refinement/thinning practice on this knife. My question: what is the best way to go about this? I have several lower grit stones: an Atoma 140 diamond plate (used thus far for flattening stones), a Shapton Pro 320, a Shapton Glass 500 and a Shapton Pro 1000. From what I've read, it sounds like I'd want to start no higher than the 320, but I've also seem some suggestions to use sandpaper for thinning. I'm just not sure what makes the most sense to start with. Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[M1k3]

Start on the 320. Go from there.

 

[cotedupy]

Yeah I'd be with @M1k3 . Try flattening the main bevel to some level of consistency on the 320, then build the edge from the 500 going up. If you've got similar bevels on both sides of the knife then you should be able to tell more easily if you need to sort any lapses of technique.

The other thing I'd say is... I sharpen in the same way as you; I'm right handed and always hold the knife in my right hand, I don't sharpen ambidextrously. Below are a couple of pictures of how I hold the knife, this blade doesn't have a handle, so it's not exactly accurate, but you get the gist. The second picture obviously shows how I'm holding it to sharpen the RHS. If you're not already holding it with your forefinger on the spine like that - try it. It gives a lot more stability in terms of maintaining angle. (And obviously I'm going to be using the left hand to apply pressure, I just couldn't take a picture of that otherwise I'd drop my phone!)

Otherwise obviously it's just practice! Sounds like you're on the right path though .

 

[cotedupy]

(p.s. Very well-described original post btw, in terms of pictures, and explaining important details about your technique etc. Kudos!)

 

[ian]

My question: what is the best way to go about this? I have several lower grit stones: an Atoma 140 diamond plate (used thus far for flattening stones), a Shapton Pro 320, a Shapton Glass 500 and a Shapton Pro 1000. From what I've read, it sounds like I'd want to start no higher than the 320, but I've also seem some suggestions to use sandpaper for thinning. I'm just not sure what makes the most sense to start with. Thanks for any suggestions!

I agree with @M1k3, but also, don't stress too much about which stones you're going to use at this stage. If you start at too high a grit, you'll know you should go lower because it'll take forever to make any progress. If you start too low, the worst that'll happen is you'll create some deep scratches that'll take a while to get out. (As long as you keep checking your work, it's hard to really f up the geometry of a knife on stones, because it takes so long. The exception to this is that knives that are super thin behind the edge will get much less thin behind the edge quickly if you use a coarse stone.) In terms of which coarse stones to use, or whether to use sandpaper, or whatever, it's all about solving issues that you've been getting annoyed with while thinning for hours. People use sandpaper because they get sick of flattening their stones and would rather just throw out the paper. People prefer one coarse stone over another because they prefer the stone dishing to having to deal with it glazing over, etc.. etc...

Moral: basically any stone works for anything*. Try it out. If you eventually find some part of it frustrating, you can ask around to see if other solutions would work better.



*ok, don't try to thin anything on a 12k.

 

[JASinIL2006]

OK, so I'm trying to thin this DaoVua gyuto and I (of course) have a question: as I'm thinning (originally on a SG500 and now on a SP 320), I'm seeing shiny spots where the blade clearly has made contact with the stones, but there are other spots that remain untouched (or barely touched; see circled areas in photo below). My interpretation is that these untouched spots are a reflection of an inconsistent grind on the knife, and these spots are bridging between thicker parts of the blade. In the clearest example of this, at the heel of blade, I'm getting good contact with the very heel and with a spot just in front of the logo, about an inch and half from the heel. If I am understanding this correctly, I'm going to need to keep thinning until I'm getting consistent contact over that entire region of the blade.

Does that make sense?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yes it makes sense but I personally would not worry about grinding until everything is even. It is also possible there's some subtle bends in the blade that could cause a similar result but sticking with the uneven grind idea, it's just the way it is.

Nearly every knife I've ventured into thinning is uneven to some degree or another. You could be grinding forever and lose a ton of metal trying to get everything even. Successive work might sort it out over time. Tackle the majority and call it a day.

That's what I do anyway and I'm surely no expert. Others may have different advice.

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

If it were mine I would just keep thinning the areas that you are hitting until I was satisfied with those spots. The areas that you are not hitting is because they are already thin.

After you've worked up through finer grits you can clean up the spots that were un touched with finger stones or sand paper if the aesthetics are a problem.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

OK, so I'm trying to thin this DaoVua gyuto and I (of course) have a question: as I'm thinning (originally on a SG500 and now on a SP 320), I'm seeing shiny spots where the blade clearly has made contact with the stones, but there are other spots that remain untouched (or barely touched; see circled areas in photo below).
View attachment 161129

I don't even see shiny spots here, I see mud over the top of the marker you applied to witness abrasion. This reminds me of the aggravating mess that is the Cerax 320 when one attempts to use it this way. Assuming those really are low spots (use a straightedge to check) I would use something less muddy and a lot more aggressive to even out an area that large. I really mean aggressive, like 80 or 120 grit Cubitron II sandpaper, or the coarse side of the Zandstra FOSS 7205 speed-skating stone.

 

[M1k3]

I would focus more on evening out right near the edge. The rest is more aesthetic. Just my opinion in balancing out fixing it and keeping material.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I would focus more on evening out right near the edge. The rest is more aesthetic. Just my opinion in balancing out fixing it and keeping material.

I agree. The most benefit I ever get from thinning is the shoulders of the edge bevel.

 

[JASinIL2006]

I would focus more on evening out right near the edge. The rest is more aesthetic. Just my opinion in balancing out fixing it and keeping material.

Part of what I was hoping to accomplish was to smooth out the shoulder because I was having trouble maintaining an even edge because the blade is kind of wavy on the right side. I ground it down a bit more on that side and it’s looking better. Interestingly, the left side was pretty eve down the length of the blade.

I did work on the area right above the edge and the did a simple progression (SG500, SP2000) and the knife is sharper than I’ve seen it. Cuts very nicely on copier paper and phonebook paper, but less great on paper towel. It could be a little bit thinner behind the edge, but good enough for today’s practice.

Other than the finish, which looks like heck, it feels like progress. At this point, I’m not very concerned about the appearance of the knife, since I really got it just to practice.

 

[JASinIL2006]

I don't even see shiny spots here, I see mud over the top of the marker you applied to witness abrasion. This reminds me of the aggravating mess that is the Cerax 320 when one attempts to use it this way. Assuming those really are low spots (use a straightedge to check) I would use something less muddy and a lot more aggressive to even out an area that large. I really mean aggressive, like 80 or 120 grit Cubitron II sandpaper, or the coarse side of the Zandstra FOSS 7205 speed-skating stone.

No mud on the blade at all. It was washed and wiped before I took the picture. The light spots are shiny from the stone.

 

[ModRQC]

OK, so I'm trying to thin this DaoVua gyuto and I (of course) have a question: as I'm thinning (originally on a SG500 and now on a SP 320), I'm seeing shiny spots where the blade clearly has made contact with the stones, but there are other spots that remain untouched (or barely touched; see circled areas in photo below). My interpretation is that these untouched spots are a reflection of an inconsistent grind on the knife, and these spots are bridging between thicker parts of the blade. In the clearest example of this, at the heel of blade, I'm getting good contact with the very heel and with a spot just in front of the logo, about an inch and half from the heel. If I am understanding this correctly, I'm going to need to keep thinning until I'm getting consistent contact over that entire region of the blade.

Does that make sense?

View attachment 161129

I think there we mostly see where your fingers were pressing on the other side. Usually comes from two things with a beginner's technique: you're trying to go too fast/robotize your movements, which always seem a good idea to hit the entire bevel until realizing most of the stuff happens just where you tend to repeatedly press yout fingers. Otherwise, another thing that happen is often looking on the "other side" of the blade to see if doing right, and upon seeing that scratch pattern has gone "out of countrol" aka "out your preset area you colored with Sharpie" you're sort of getting scared of totally messing the knife up and use much less pressure for a while until force of habit kicks in and you're back to full pressure and robotized finger placement that is not efficient. They sort for work together quite well as you see, one leading into the other.

Start with just two fingers pressure, kept touching together. Start with just the heel section, two fingers covering from the very tip of the heel/area to where they land at that position. Use long strokes, but few. Yes, scratch pattern will go forward of pressure, but continue on with only just the next "two fingers area" right beside the original and so on. Always use long stokes, but always use as few also. See what it gives you once your two fingers step reach the tip. If some area seem to be a bit less touched compared to overall, don't focus on it immediately, but do a second round of the same. And a third round. If spots are still quite obvious that don't seem to get touched as much, NOW you may start to think there MIGHT be an overgrind there.

Best way to chase an overgrind is to alternatively focus pressure on the two spots that are on each side of the low spot, and then on the low spot, and see which of both, or if both, seem to carry the same improvements to the situation, and continue with alterning with more focus on the way that seems to work faster if any.

From there is the grey zone: do you really want to totally flatten the bevel you're cutting/following. And if all of the above doesn't seem to pan out, when do you stop and reconsider this and ask more questions before going on? Or decide to live with the consequences and learning of your deciding to press forward and see what you get at...

I'm so very really happy for you. It's not cool to be thinking we're doing wrong, but there's only once place to start my friend, and it's a nice place soon enough, and you've just found yourself unlocking it and getting right in the middle of it, looking around you at everything that is so mysterious about it...

Good continuation!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

No mud on the blade at all. It was washed and wiped before I took the picture. The light spots are shiny from the stone.

Are we looking at the same image? Maybe it is an optical illusion but I cannot see this as anything other than mud.