One wa-gyuto to rule them all

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Okay, guys, I am new at this so help me to understand something. As best as I can tell, "honyaki" roughly translates to "true forged" or in knifemaker speak "mono steel" Is that correct? I also read that honyaki knives are considered more difficult to make and sell for considerably more that their Japanese forge welded laminate cousins. As a western knifemalker, i am wondering whats up with that? In my world, ANYTHING that has been forge welded is generally considered to be more complex and as such, mor e expensive regardless of whether or not it has 2 layers or 22,000. So does this mean that I can charge a LOT more for W2, 52100 or Cru Forge blades if I call them honyaki? :biggrin:
 
Honyaki often means mizu honyaki, i.e. water quenched and the blade is differentially hardened and has a hamon.
 
Yeah, I saw that too. Still raises the same question. When I make a W2 blade with a hamon, any extra cost, which the "market" says cannot be a whole lot, comes from the cost of extra hand finishing. Forge welded or even laminated blades like San Mai would still ALWAYS cost more.
Rottman said:
Honyaki often means mizu honyaki, i.e. water quenched and the blade is differentially hardened and has a hamon.
Click to expand...
 
Might be. Many Japanese makers harden honyaki knives to the upper limit of the steel (hrc 64-65) and it is often mentioned that they have a loss of 50% (which I don't really buy) due to pure water quenching and bent blades. Together with the extra finishing and the aura of them being the crown of knifemaking by master smiths the honyaki prices are justified.
 
Mpukas, i understand the difference. It's just that it is completely counterintuitive to anything that I have ever done. In my western world, monosteel knives are easier. But them again, I would NEVER hammer on a cold blade, so it does show how much difference there is between the traditional 16th and 17th Century Japanese techniques and my ultra modern state of the art 19th and early 20th Century techniques. :lol2: I was also surp[ised to learn that while a lot of the tradtionally made japanes knives are forged to thickness and taper, they are not forged to shape.
 
If wonder if HOW they harden the steel is risky? You and I know that we can harden stuff like some of Achim's "special" carbon steel or 52100 to those levels with little or no risk if we have the right gear. I can get W2 pretty close to that out of a Paragon oven and Parks 50, no salt or water quench needed.
Rottman said:
Might be. Many Japanese makers harden honyaki knives to the upper limit of the steel (hrc 64-65) and it is often mentioned that they have a loss of 50% (which I don't really buy) due to pure water quenching and bent blades. Together with the extra finishing and the aura of them being the crown of knifemaking by master smiths the honyaki prices are justified.
Click to expand...
 
I think most of these stories of bent and unfixable blades relate to single bevel knives where a two layer blade is way easier to fix than a bent monosteel. The whole water quench thing is tradition I guess but as Jon says oil is also (more?) commonly used.
 
in the meantime and as i can't post in the B/S/T section, if anyone has one of the following wa-gyutos to sell (either 240 or 270), please send me a PM:
- watanabe pro
- heiji
- masamoto ks
- konosuke white #2
- konosuke fujiyama white #2

i am definitely interested in one of marko tsourkan's knives, but i am considering to make a wa-handle myself (just for the experience of doing so), and i would need a blade for that, a used one.
 
all are knives from totally different parts of the universe :D
 
******* said:
Mpukas, i understand the difference. It's just that it is completely counterintuitive to anything that I have ever done. In my western world, monosteel knives are easier. But them again, I would NEVER hammer on a cold blade, so it does show how much difference there is between the traditional 16th and 17th Century Japanese techniques and my ultra modern state of the art 19th and early 20th Century techniques. :lol2: I was also surp[ised to learn that while a lot of the tradtionally made japanes knives are forged to thickness and taper, they are not forged to shape.
Click to expand...

My knowledge of honyaki and bladesmithing in general is severlly limited.
Here's a vid f/ Murray Carter on his 2010 Japan tour, where he visited Mr. Shiraki. At 12:00 he talks about how a honyaki blade is made.
[video=youtube;_6uTzsoUBMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6uTzsoUBMk[/video]
 
just wanted to let you know, i made my decision. marko tsourkan 255mm gyuto made of 52100... not a bad choice i believe! patience is a virtue i have yet learn to deal with!
 
You definitely will not regret it. I am waiting patiently for mine to come up. Now I just have to get my project with Mario figured out.
 
daddy yo yo said:
just wanted to let you know, i made my decision. marko tsourkan 255mm gyuto made of 52100... not a bad choice i believe! patience is a virtue i have yet learn to deal with!
Click to expand...

It will be well worth the wait!
 
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