Paper Towel Challenge
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All the paper towels in the shop are those gritty brown cheap rolls in the auto dispenser, and they're closer to parchment, way easier to cut.
My bosses already thought I was a douche for bringing in my own hand soap, sani, and gloves. Wait till I show up with a roll of my own paper towels.
"What's next Vertigo, gonna bring in some Charmin Extra Soft?!"
Callin it now.
My bosses already thought I was a douche for bringing in my own hand soap, sani, and gloves. Wait till I show up with a roll of my own paper towels.
"What's next Vertigo, gonna bring in some Charmin Extra Soft?!"
Callin it now.
Yup that is what I was talking about with the above post as what I call Oli's drop through. It almost looks like he just drops it through the towel. I have to slice it down moving the blade a bit more. Which is one reason I seem to have issues getting that last inch or so with the cleavers I think. I think part of that is he is doing it so fast the side of the towel you are not holding doesn't have time to fall away causing issues for that last section of cut. I am moving a bit slower, but am able to go a bit faster with the longer pointier blade so still able to get through it before it starts to drop. This test definitely seems harder to do with cleavers.
This is just my opinion and observations from a lot of years of cutting paper towels with knives. For getting a full "Olli-Drop" (free hanging paper towel vertical all the way through no tearing)
Harder level of difficulty:
Very thick behind the edge
Very long (270+)
Very short (150-)
Very assymetric grind
Complex alloy steels
Extremely coarse finish - too much tooth
Extremely fine finish - not enough tooth
Softer heat treat
Debas, yanagibas, petties, paring, cleavers
Easier level of difficulty:
Mid weight spine for some weight to help go through
Very thin behind the edge for minimal resistance
Mid grit finish, not too toothy, not too polished
Symmetric grind
Simple steels
Harder heat treat
Gyutos, nakiris, sujihikis
The King of In-Hand Sharpening strikes again! And this time using a <10mm Shapton Glass!!
Watch out for yer fingers, thumbs, radial artery, ulnar artery, &c. &c. there J. Yh?
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I shall have a go at this properly (ie with the sharpening, but I’m gonna chicken out and use benchstones) soon when I have a moment. Though whether it’ll be as impressive as that coti video from a coupla years back - I cannot guarantee.
In the meantime though here’s one I did after sharpening a few of my knives a month or two ago. I didn’t post it at the time cos I thought it might’ve been overkill, but seeing as we now have an entire thread about it…
Can’t remember exactly what stone I was using for them. But given the appearance of the atoma in that pic - I’m gonna guess it was a slurried Grecian / Llyn Idwal used with water. Or possibly a Coti.
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I’ve never actually tried this. But to my mind - yep, that does seem like it’d be more tricky than just a straight down cut. Or possibly requires a slightly different type of edge(?).
I’m not pulling/sawing it through along the whole edge, but it’s certainly not a completely perpendicular push drop. To do that kind of thing you need a much lower bevel angle. Razors and yanagi can get around there sometimes, so I think you’d be looking at a total angle of something like 15 degs or less.
And also - look at the angle I’m holding the knives relative to the paper towel: Tip up, heel down. If you’ve sharpened and deburred well, and still got teeth on yer edge, then that angle change is gonna mimic a sawing action.
TBH I expect I’m probably gaming the system in some way. I just haven’t figured out exactly what it is yet!
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Yeah, you're cheating by being better than us. BOOOOOOOOO
The King of In-Hand Sharpening strikes again! And this time using a <10mm Shapton Glass!!
Watch out for yer fingers, thumbs, radial artery, ulnar artery, &c. &c. there J. Yh?
- - -
I shall have a go at this properly (with the sharpening) soon when I have a moment. Though whether it’ll be as impressive as that coti video from a coupla years back - I cannot guarantee.
In the meantime though here’s one I did after sharpening a few of my knives a month or two ago. I didn’t post it at the time cos I thought it might’ve been overkill, but seeing as we now have an entire thread about it…
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Can’t remember exactly what stone I was using for them. But given the appearance of the atoma in that pic - I’m gonna guess it was a slurried Grecian / Llyn Idwal used with water. Or possibly a Coti.
So in the video it almost looks as if you are pulling the towel up not moving the knife down. I am holding my blades just as you do Oli. But I start at the heel up right by the edge of the towel. And pull the knife back and down at the same time while keeping the towel in the same spot. So as I am coming down and through with the tip up I am starting to lower the tip as I am coming down through and moving the knife heel to tip.
I seem to be able to to cut slow continuous curves more easily than the drop through. If you notice my straight through cut are more curved too.
You’re absolutely right here T. More curved cuts when going straight down is the result of having more teeth on the edge and/or going slower.
A higher finish, or more perfect deburring, or more stropping - will give a straighter cut through paper towel at the same speed.
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I think worth noting here the spirit in which the thread was intended…
Cutting paper towel is a bit of silly fun, like @stringer said. It doesn’t mean that you’re better at sharpening kitchen knives, because kitchen knives aren’t intended or designed to cut paper towel well. It’s a lot more useful if your knife can food well.
It’s also a lot more useful if your knife can still cut food well after a week, or two weeks, or a month. That’s the acid test of good sharpening (imo).
Someone doesn't want their Master Sharpening certificate
From a couple months ago, a vintage #6 cleaver I repaired. One big chip, a couple small ones and a lot of rust. I believe this was a 1k King Hyper edge, all teeth. I usually cut curves because it shows any remaining areas of burr/wire edge as well as anywhere the edge may have been rounded or rolled over.
Yup. I don't regularly sharpen much. I just don't need to. The Paper towel test is just really kind of fun to see how long it will cut it without needing sharpening. It will slice anything I need regardless.
The Aogami Super, Aogami #2 and 52100 hold a lot longer than the Shirogami #2 though, but I can't complain about my Anryu and Yoshimitsu Kajiya blades have been great and still cut anything really nice. They just tend to lose that bite quicker making it harder to keep up with the others for paper towel cuts.
Oli we need some cleaver paper towel videos. I have been cutting paper towels with the big Okubo cleaver too. That one is really fun to get to that level. Not a thin blade at all.
Someone doesn't want their Master Sharpening certificate
Are you trying to imply my edges wouldn't still drop kitchen towel like that after a month...? Slander!!!
[Obviously they wouldn't. Doubt they'd do it after a coupla meals tbh. Just don't tell the exam board I said that, yh?].
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Howzat for ya (this one is definitely on a Grecian)…
Now that you mention it though - I’m more interested in seeing @BillHanna sharpening all of his sub 270mm knives in-hand:
All of them, Bill. ALL OF THEM…
BillHanna
Gotta get ready for ARM
I’ve done a fair bit of selling. The cupboards are kinda bare these days.
But I do use a lil palm size slate backed coti.
But I do use a lil palm size slate backed coti.
The in hand stone sharpening is so wild to me, going to have to give that a try!
Here's an old paper towel video in the meantime.
Here's an old paper towel video in the meantime.
No, not saying anything about your skills. Just commenting on your suggestion that people not get their Master Sharpening hours in.
You do know that if we don’t get at least *one* in-hand-cleaver-n-coti-sharpening video from you, then you’re obliged to renounce the throne as ‘King of Rectangles’…
(It’s actually in the Magna Carta if you read closely. Though one of the lesser known appendices tbf).
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Ok then, here is a proper sharpening video wot I made just now. It's too big to upload here, and I don't know how to compress videos, so I put it on youtube instead. Hopefully the link works.
This is my trusty '80s stainless Sabatier that I did quite an extensive restoration of last year. And I am extremely happy with the geometry and performance now. Earlier today I'd been playing with sandpaper to tinker with the aesthetic finish of the blade, and sandpaper is rather good at dulling an edge - you can see at the start of the video it isn't even close to going through just normal A4 paper.
The stone is a Yellow Lake Llyn Idwal. I'd not used this particular stone in quite some time, but it's the same 'Grecian' type of Idwal as the two vids I posted above, and I thought: Why change a winning formula? I'm using it with water and atoma slurry, because with a burnished surface Idwals can be very fine and quite slow stones, similar to hard arks. But for knife sharpening we need it quicker and coarser for some teeth on the edge, and also cos this knife was very blunt and we don’t want to be here all day.
The kitchen roll is Bounty 'The Original' (which has now been rebranded as 'Plenty' in the UK).
This is my trusty '80s stainless Sabatier that I did quite an extensive restoration of last year. And I am extremely happy with the geometry and performance now. Earlier today I'd been playing with sandpaper to tinker with the aesthetic finish of the blade, and sandpaper is rather good at dulling an edge - you can see at the start of the video it isn't even close to going through just normal A4 paper.
The stone is a Yellow Lake Llyn Idwal. I'd not used this particular stone in quite some time, but it's the same 'Grecian' type of Idwal as the two vids I posted above, and I thought: Why change a winning formula? I'm using it with water and atoma slurry, because with a burnished surface Idwals can be very fine and quite slow stones, similar to hard arks. But for knife sharpening we need it quicker and coarser for some teeth on the edge, and also cos this knife was very blunt and we don’t want to be here all day.
The kitchen roll is Bounty 'The Original' (which has now been rebranded as 'Plenty' in the UK).
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Thank f that worked eh! Cos there was no way I could be arsed feckin around with some other knife to make another 6 minute video.
Coupla things to note…
I’m finishing edge trailing and stropping on unloaded, suede side leather, which I tend to do now for most stainless, especially cheaper stuff. For fancy Japanese grinds from fancy carbon steels I finish leading and strop on newspaper.
Also look at the sharpening angle, and look at @ethompson ’s angle in his vid on this thread. They’re both quite high compared to what one is often told to do. Mine’s probably around or a bit over 22 degs, Ed’s looks higher still. If the geometry of your knife is good, and properly thin behind the edge, you have a lot of leeway to push the angle up without losing cutting performance.
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Thank you for the awesome video! Stupid question maybe but what are you testing on your thumb's nail?
Aha… the ‘Thumbnail Test’ is my (and I’m sure many other people’s) secret weapon!
Do a search for it here, I’m sure there’ll be quite a few posts. But basically; if you rest a knife edge on your thumbnail, and try to wiggle it just very slightly, then you can get a very accurate impression of the state of the edge.
It’s kinda like the ‘Three Finger Test’, which I also use at the end of that vid I think. I use my thumbnail more because I do it throughout the sharpening process, whereas I only use the pads of my fingers at the end.
Downside is, that if you sharpen a lot of things every day, then your thumbnail will constantly look like this:
Ok, attempt#2.
I still haven't gotten a really perfect drop on camera. I am either off frame or don't have the camera rolling when I do it. It's a good thing my wife is out of town. I have blown the paper towel budget for the week. I have experimented with a bunch of different stones. Having good success with mid grit synthetics.
This is an 270 ashi Ginga suji off of a Shapton pro 1000
I still haven't gotten a really perfect drop on camera. I am either off frame or don't have the camera rolling when I do it. It's a good thing my wife is out of town. I have blown the paper towel budget for the week. I have experimented with a bunch of different stones. Having good success with mid grit synthetics.
This is an 270 ashi Ginga suji off of a Shapton pro 1000
I see thanks! Yeah I wasn't sure as you did it throughout the sharpening and thought I might be for testing the burr.
You rest your edge vertically right? Could you describe what sensations you are looking for to get the accurate impression?
Nice. I see you have been hitting the yellow hot sauce pretty hard there Oli. Time for me to make some more of mine as I am getting low. I tend to use a lot more this time of year for some reason it just feels like hot sauce season.
I tend to sharpen at a higher angle than you are doing there also.
I do these finger tests subconsciously; I’m not thinking about exactly when I’m doing what, I was just trying to make the vid as quick as it could be, whilst making sure I did actually drop paper towel at the end (otherwise it would’ve been a little embarrassing). But I’ve just watched the whole thing back again, and it’s actually quite interesting...
Up until about 2m05s I’m raising the initial burrs. And I use only the normal test for that - running your fingers up the blade face to the edge to feel for a burr:
Then from 2.05 until I start stropping; I stop doing that, and instead use only the thumbail test. I know I’ve already apexed the knife at this point, so I’m using it to check the state of the edge / burr as I abrade it down. And I do it straight down on my nail, though some people do it at an angle:
Once I’m happy with the edge I move to stropping, and from there I use only the three finger test (or in my case it appears two fingers). This gives a very good indication of the final edge, but is probably less useful during the sharpening process:
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Unfortunately no - you can’t really describe what the second two feel like. The reason they're very accurate is that they're quite nuanced and subjective bits of sensory perception. In the same way you couldn't describe to me what springtime smelled like in Bandol!
I usually just advise people to try them whenever they sharpen, and get you'll get a feel for it over time. But obviously, that's just the way I do it. Other people will test and feel for things differently, and get results that are just as good.
Though I do think that getting dialled in to some kind of finger and/or nail test is useful. After I finished stropping and did the final edge test on my fingers - I knew full well that it was going to drop the kitchen roll first time, pretty much zero doubt. Otherwise I’d have gone back to the stone, cos I wouldn’t have wanted to make a tit of myself on camera. So yeah… that's how sensitive your fingers are!
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Far be it from me to discourage stone purchases as someone with a stupid number myself, but it’s more about the sharpener than the stone.
