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I think "expectations" is the key word here. I know that after reading what Mr. Boar describes as "glowing reviews" of Dave's boards, I expected more than I got and I was disappointed. But I see that as my fault, not Dave's.

I have what some would regard as unreasonable standards in some areas and it's up to me to communicate what I'm looking for in a custom made product. In retrospect, I should have described what I wanted and offered to pay a premium price to achieve that end. How the hell is Dave supposed to know what I want unless I tell him? Mea culpa :dontknow:

And I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "get over it, it's going to get dinged up when you use it" argument. I know that when I finally win the Powerball and get my new Aston Martin, eventually some knuckle dragging troglodyte in a Yugo is going to park next to me and bang his car door into mine. But I don't expect my V12 Vantage to arrive with chipped paint and dents.:razz:
 
Some of this community's most fascinating and recurring discussions center around exactly the various meanings of "craftsmanship" and "expectations." I have--quite seriously--considered writing an article on the social economy of how we structure our choices around those values, and what our actions in that light say about us.

As someone who owns a 2005 Honda Civic with countless dings from the above mentioned troglodytes but STILL gets pissed every time a new one appears, I don't think that there is a right answer beyond the utterly unsatisfying but true maxim that clear communication and detailed knowledge beforehand can prevent dissatisfaction down the line. Maybe I'm easy to please, but I can also say that every product I've bought from a vendor or craftsman here has made me happy and seemed to resist, in however small a way, our descent into a soulless world ruled entirely by impersonal market forces and unmitigated by either creativity or human decency. Diatribe over. I love my Boardsmith board.
 
heldentenor said:
...clear communication and detailed knowledge beforehand can prevent dissatisfaction down the line...
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+1. I've been satisfied with the appearance of all five BoardSMITHs I've purchased. However, I have seen boards that I would have complained about, if I didn't know what to expect. Frankly, I think the onus is on David to make sure his customers know what they should expect. I would look at providing a picture or something prior to shipping. A lot of complaints (legitimate and otherwise) on this forum (and others) get swept under the rug because we value our craftsmen. I wouldn't hold it against the OP.
 
I'd be bummed out if I got that board.

The same can be said for the granite counter tops I had installed in the restrooms. There is a big fugly wabi sabi spot right in the middle of the exposed edge. Ok, it's a natural material. Turn the damn thing around so it's against the wall!

Not the same scenario but............
 
Frankly, I think the onus is on David to make sure his customers know what they should expect.

I totally agree. His catalogue shows all these perfect boards so you naturally expect to get one just like that. When I didn't I was disappointed and communicated that to him. He explained what the irregulrities were and I was okay with it. It's all about managing expectations.
 
Good thread.
Think it is a healthy and educational discussion.

Imo, the size of the artifact of the board in question + given the shipping/return policy...

= a new owner (expectations again) who should be given some pause...
 
It is a piece of WOOD fer criminy sakes. Wood is not a uniform material. I guess I am just a wabi sabi kinda guy, but I don't see a problem with the board. That light colored block is problematical, though.....
 
SpikeC said:
It is a piece of WOOD fer criminy sakes. Wood is not a uniform material. I guess I am just a wabi sabi kinda guy, but I don't see a problem with the board. That light colored block is problematical, though.....
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I agree with you. It is made from a tree, the interior is a lot more uniform than the exterior would lead one to believe, but not perfect. I would take a returned board, would be a lot better than what I am using at home currently.
 
It's a natural material, and therefor no one should be surprised if it has a little character that comes with it. If I received that board, I may have questioned it's looks, but after a little while staring at it, I think I would have just appreciated it that much more. The question isn't about right or wrong for either the buyer or seller, but comes down to managing expectations. I think the idea of sending a pic before shipping is genius. It would save money in the long run, and any objections or questions would be able to be resolved before too large of a commitment was made. Right now, as it stands, we have a customer that doesn't feel like he was given proper service, and a maker who doesn't feel appreciated. No one is getting what they want at this point. The best anyone can do from this is live and learn, and now it's time to hug it out.
 
After reading all the posts I feel like both are at fault. Dave should have a disclamer about wood being a natural product and you should expect mineral streaks, color variations , small knots, etc.

If I was a buyer and wanted a board that looked just like one in the catalog, I'd ask "Does mine look like the picture?" Caveat Emptor...
 
SpikeC said:
It is a piece of WOOD fer criminy sakes. Wood is not a uniform material.
Click to expand...

We live in a country where billions of tomatoes and pieces of fruit are pretty damn uniform, eggs all look the same and customers expect their shipped product to look like the picture. Not the same exact board as in the picture but...you know what I mean.

It takes a certain amount of education to have people accept heirloom tomatoes, eggs from real farm raised chickens and wabi sabi from artisan made products. I can see why the OP saw that one block of wood as a defect.
 
I sincerely appreciate all the comments posted here. Realizing I can't make everyone happy helps to keep me grounded and keeps the ego in check.

I have had several offers to buy the returns I receive, which amounts to only one to three a year. For safety concerns, I will continue to cut them up and dispose of them in the dumpster.

Along with returns, I have boards that never see the light outside of the shop due to a flaw which has surfaced during sanding making it unsellable in any form or fashion. Currently I have started the production of 16 - 16 x 22 maple boards and 10 - 12 x 18 maple boards. Of those 26, I expect 5 or more to either be cut down to smaller sizes or discarded entirely. When processing the raw stock for those boards, about 25% was pulled out due to defects that were unseen until they went though either the jointer or planer. With rough sawn stock defects are tough to see except for knots which stand out like sore thumbs. Each year I make about 700 boards more or less and easily I have 100 others which can't make the cut due to problems/defects.

The suggestion to send an approval photo prior to shipping could be a logistical nightmare. When I ship boards on Fridays, normally UPS backs up to the door and takes 15 to 25 boxes. If I have to wait for approval before shipping, a board could wait for weeks until an approval is received due to some of the email addresses I receive from customers are their disposable addresses and aren't checked regularly. Good idea though.

Again, I realize I can't satisfy everyone 100%, that is a dream. What I can do is make each and every board the best I can and make each one as useful and long lasting as I can. If someone has a problem, I will try to work with them to make it a win-win for both but sometimes that won't happen so we resort to returns. Hence, the policy, stated above and now in writing to be included within each and every box that will be shipped from today on.

Thanks to everyone for their participation, suggestions and comments. They are all appreciated.
 
You know what they say about being in business................If it weren't for the employees, customers and vendors it would be great!
 
One last thing- I just looked closely at my board and it has some mineral staining. I forgot about it because after a couple of oilings with mineral oil and a coat of board butter and some time the stain is almost invisible. What these boards look like when you get them is not anything like what they look like after they live a little!
It is too bad that the person who was dissatisfied did not have a chance to see his board mature.
 
Got mineral stains on both of our bigger boards, too. 100% agree they 'tone down' after some oilings, waxings and board use. None are as big as the one that sparked this thread, but multiple blocks in both boards do have the stains.

A few dozen people have seen our boards up-close, and no one has mentioned the stains. But many of asked where the boards came from, and how they could get one.
 
I'm still waiting for my board...so I think you all should stop distracting Dave :nunchucks:

Dave - when it arrives I promise to like it!!
 
I think that this thread is actually great. My only addition is that we shouldn't make the OP on any craftsman's forum (sorry it is David's in this case) feel like he is wrong unless he was totally out of line to begin with. As a close knit community, we often try not to besmirch the reputations of many vendors and craftsmen that many on the forum hold up in high regard. It must be hard as it is writing anything negative in that setting. Being asked to get over it by everyone else as a response, doesn't always make a great deal of sense.

As an aside, I doubt David should photograph every board he sends out the door. If it is visually flawless, there is likely no issue. If there was a flaw, then a photo would/could save some time. At least he can recoup the time it cost to take that photo and send it on, by selling the board on to a more understanding customer, or he can sell it on as a second at a slight discount (we know a lot of people on this forum who are glad to get a deal, for what is only an aesthetic blemish), and all that work wouldn't have to go to the dumpster.

My 2 cents.
 
I just have trouble considering variations in coloration of wood as flaws.
 
couldn't you just write a note on your website stating that you "use the highest quality natural wood products that mother nature can provide to make your boards, as a result of using a natural product and the nature of a handmade piece there maybe some natural variances in color, grain and possible mineral staining that in no way adversely affects the board and adds to the over all character and visual appeal of a handmade artisinal product. Since all boards are individually handmade and not mass produced in a factory, no two boards will look exactly the same. You will be receiving a unique, one of a kind handmade heirloom. All photographs are representations only, if you would like a more uniform , flawless and mass produce board, this is not the product for you. Thank you and have a nice day."
 
Do you think that people will be able to actually read all of that?
 
sachem allison said:
couldn't you just write a note on your website stating that you "use the highest quality natural wood products that mother nature can provide to make your boards, as a result of using a natural product and the nature of a handmade piece there maybe some natural variances in color, grain and possible mineral staining that in no way adversely affects the board and adds to the over all character and visual appeal of a handmade artisinal product. Since all boards are individually handmade and not mass produced in a factory, no two boards will look exactly the same. You will be receiving a unique, one of a kind handmade heirloom. All photographs are representations only, if you would like a more uniform , flawless and mass produce board, this is not the product for you. Thank you and have a nice day."
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+1
 
I think there have been a lot of good points made in this thread and the topic of perceived 'defects' in a product made from natural materials such as wood is very subjective. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to convince a customer that their disappointment is unwarranted because the visual blemish is "naturally occurring." This difficulty is only made worse by the fact that the photos on David's website and the photos posted on KKF by many happy Boardsmith owners typically depict maple boards nearly free of significant mineral stains.

I too am a satisfied Boardsmith owner, having purchased (2) 14x20's in Maple and Mahogany. I received the 14x20 Maple first and was honestly taken aback by the mineral stains. In scouring the internet and KKF for pics when initially researching, I never once saw one of David's boards with so many 'natural discolorations' - therefore my expectation was that I was going to receive a relatively consistent board like all the other thrilled maple board owners had posted. I know some people like the organic look of discolorations - to each his own.

After a few e-mails back and forth with David and a phone call where he gladly took the time to explain how mineral stains form and the difficulty in identifying them prior to assembly and finishing, I felt more comfortable that they were in no way structural defects. The problem remained that I was still not thrilled with the aesthetics as I had ordered the board as a gift. While David was perfectly willing to work with me on a return or exchange, the hefty cost of shipping simply can not be ignored. The Mahogany board showed up the next day and it was an absolutely stunning piece with no stains. I then made the hard decision (selfishly) to gift the Mahogany board instead and keep the maple for myself. Needless to say, I love using the board and all lathered up in board butter it is still an impressive piece. And as I told David, now I have an excuse to buy another Mahogany board!

Boardsmith boards are beautifully-crafted and a joy to use. David is perfectly reasonable in his return policy but I would suggest (as others have) identifying boards with less-than-perfect aesthetics and labeling them as such and/or selling them at a slight discount to hopefully avoid some of these customer service headaches.

 
devsung said:
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See, if I received that, it would have been a defect to me. On the grounds that I can't believe that a blemish free board, and this one, would sell at the same price. Especially if placed side by side in a retail store. And if they were placed side by side, Iimagine that customers would keep buying the blemish free ones and skipping over this one at the same price.

Buying online and sight unseen means you trust the retailer/craftsman to make that call for you.

Hence I also agree, that if a particular board turns out this way, a quick photo and explanation before the event is way better than after. No bad taste in anyone's mouth then.
 
Very interesting thread. I think it's great one to stick so a potential customer can peruse and educate him/herself. I am not where I stand and that's not because of anything.

1. I think we all agree that Dave's boards are some of the best we have ever used.
2. With that comes to cost, which we all understand and accept since it is some of the best custom made product and we mostly need 1-2 of them (compare to knives and many other expensive hobbies we have).

BUT

I think, having spent so much $, customer, especially one who does not know any better, has to know ahead of time what he/she is getting. One of the bigger issues would be family, who likely even more ignorant that customer him/herself. Try to explain a $200 investigatory which looks like this. Even if they accept verbally, he/she will always have doubts. That's where cognitive dissonance comes into play (buyers remorse). We all had that feeling of disgust and disappointment, which often makes one to stop using the product entirely.

Who is right? There is really no right and wrong answer. Dave is right, many people don't have to have a up to date communication, so if he sends a picture, it may sit there for a week waiting for a reply and then if person sees 1 blemish they may ask him to redo it.

Customer also should expect something and this thread is an example to what can happen. I suspect we have seen some of the worst examples here and on lighter woods they are way more pronounced than on darker.

Many of us would also agree (put me #1 in line) that returns or detects should be sold as is for clearance prices. If Dave were to explain what happened, show pictures and give his honest assessment, I think all those boards would easily sell.
 
devsung said:
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I would not be a happy camper if I received a board like that and paid full price. Boards like this should be sold as seconds IMO. I can't imagine any one being pleased with that even if there is some CYA clause on a web site. My concern would be that those areas might fail pre-maturly. IIR there was an in depth report done by the US forestry service on mineral stains in Maple all being caused by some sort of fungus or damage to the timber. That should be easy to find with a quick Google search.
OTOH I think stains like Penacola Tiger posted on page 2 are minor and don't warrant any concern. Several defects down the center of the board are a real bummer IMO.

Dave
 
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