san-mai vs monosteel

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chinacats said:
So can I infer that when you temper that you are hardening/treating the whole blade and likely the hardness while not the same, is probably proportional? I can honestly say that any blade that I have bent back has snapped right back into place like I would think it should, this includes san mai as well as monosteel.
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My entire blade is heat treated to HRC 61-62. It MAY vary by a half point between steels. The reason they work well together, is because they essentially have the same HT process/recipe.
 
EdipisReks said:
well, that would really depend on how soft the steel is, right? i'd say half an ounce of steel living in a big jar of aqua regia is going to be pretty soft, and pretty non-stiff ;)
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From what I know, the elastic modulus for steel in general is about the same, regardless of hardness. Thus, the 'stiffness' of a knife primarily depends on cross sectional thickness/geometry.
 
It's much simpler than you guys think. Japanese use low carbon cladding, which doesn't harden. Some clad with stainless steel over carbon. Stainless cladding will only marginally harden (low RCs), as stainless steel is heat treated at higher temperature than carbon. If you use comparable carbon steels, like Pierre, that are heat treated at similar temperatures, you should get more or less uniform hardness of core and cladding.
 
Some of those San Mai blades have an asthetic appeal.For workhorse blades in production Kit. esp. under 200.00 range there are solid values in mono-steel knives like Gesshen Uraku,Suisin Inox,Kanetsugu Pro M,Carbonext,& mono carbons in White or Blue.

Damascus costs more,looks good,but does not make a knife cut better.Sharpening is diff. too,when I sharpen Shuns,rinse the mud off the stone often,because it can scuff the shiney dimpled Damascus at low angle thinning.

My Carbon Masamoto petty walked at work,replaced wt. a Hiromoto AS,worked fine as a petty,only San Mai knife I have used alot.

Esp. wt carbon cores I would guess that the more expensive San Mai with good blade geometry,not only look good but are solid cutters as well.
 
Don Nguyen said:
From what I know, the elastic modulus for steel in general is about the same, regardless of hardness. Thus, the 'stiffness' of a knife primarily depends on cross sectional thickness/geometry.
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it was a joke, aqua regia being something that dissolves steel, so steel dissolved in liquid would be pretty soft and pretty non-stiff, being liquid.
 
keithsaltydog said:
......Damascus costs more,looks good,but does not make a knife cut better.Sharpening is di......
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not all ture!! from my basic knowledge of The Metallurgy, there are many different the diverse techniques all call "Damascus"!!
*Folding Damascus(kitaji or layered-steel)- Folding one or multiple-layered jigane(high-carbon steel) several times, gives many layers with irregular Damascus patterns; this kind of Damascus that have longer kirenaga(better edge retention)
*laminating Damascus(Shun, miyabi..etc)- just a core of hard steel in the middle; Damascus patterns stainless clad surrounded. mostly for Aesthetics look only!
*pattern welding Damascus- The loose stack of steel is banged into a rod with a cross section Next, these rods are twisted and ground flat on two sides.
*"True" Damascus(wootz steel)
all above are just my basic knowledge about Damascus. here on KKF have many members with more knowledge of The Metallurgy than me, please correct me if I'm wrong & educate me more!!:)
 
OOps yes true Damascus can make a sword more flexible & harder,stronger.traces of carbon form visible patterns and swirls in the layered steel.

Damascus is common in kitchen and hunting knives,a vast majority laminated wt lighter & darker steels,also folding wire,it makes pretty knives,is more work to produce so can be very expensive,but these do not give better Kirenaga.That's what I think anyway,don't see how a surfice San Mai Damascus can make a knife cut better,JMO

A mono steel Honyaki blade forged wt. clay to form a true Hamon line can have great edge holding,I love the look of a true Hamon on swords & knives.Functional & stunning to look at.
 
keithsaltydog said:
Damascus is common in kitchen and hunting knives,a vast majority laminated wt lighter & darker steels,also folding wire,it makes pretty knives,is more work to produce so can be very expensive,but these do not give better Kirenaga.That's what I think anyway,don't see how a surfice San Mai Damascus can make a knife cut better
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Folding Damascus(kitaji/layered-steel) do have longer kirenaga(better edge retention) than kasumi blade!!
San Mai Damascus(laminating Damascus) don't!!
 
keithsaltydog said:
A mono steel Honyaki blade forged wt. clay to form a true Hamon line can have great edge holding,I love the look of a true Hamon on swords & knives.Functional & stunning to look at.
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There will be no more edge holding on a honyaki than on a same core steel in san mai blade if heat treated the same way. Hamon is a side-product of a necessary production step - keeping back soft so you can straighten the blade after it is heat treated. It's very difficult to keep the blade from warping when quenched in water. That's the main reason honyaki is priced and is expensive - the difficulty of production and high rate of failure.

Some makers over-harden their honyaki knives to get more wear resistance from simple carbon steels, but the downside of it is the brittleness. Your priced possession might break in half if you drop it on a tiled floor.

You might get impression that there is more wear resistance while sharpening a single bevel honyaki. In this case you are removing hardened steel from the whole bevel, while in san mai just from the core.
M
 
Not just Takeda. All thinly ground san mai (including Carters) will bend in your fingers if you apply enough pressure. If you don't believe me, try it at your own risk. Thicker san mai blades will bend too, but you will need to apply more force.

What will not bend is when cladding is comparable to core steel. Devin AEB-L san mai is essentially AEB-L throughout, same hardness after heat treating.
 
cclin said:
Folding Damascus(kitaji/layered-steel) do have longer kirenaga(better edge retention) than kasumi blade!!
San Mai Damascus(laminating Damascus) don't!!
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Yes agree,and most all of Damascus in Kitichen knives is surface decoration,there are custom forgers folding many layers of carbon steel,but it is a small %.

I am not knocking Damascus,some of these knives look great,esp. wt. custom exiotic wood handles.All I am saying is there are better deals out there in mono steels both Quality Stain Resistant & Carbons for production Kitchens.:)
 
Chefdog said:
I certainly won't argue your knowledge of the properties of steel. That's definitely a losing battle on my part.
But, I wasn't claiming that I notice a difference between harder and softer steel, if that's what you inferred from my statement. I was just saying that in my (limited) experience, the san mai blades I've used have seemed to have less flex than the monosteel knives I've used. Obviously, that's quite a small sample, and I guess probably says more about those particular knives than it does about the inherent differences in blade construction.
I'd certainly like to hear the scoop on this though. Are there any metallurgical factors at play concerning the stiffness between mono/clad blades, or is it just down to the properties of individual knives?
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Any difference from flex would be from thickness and geometry. The only complicating factor would be tension from the steels having different size changes post heat treatment. However, that still wouldn't decrease stiffness. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus. The difference in properties between soft and hard steel comes at yielding. Softer steels have a lower yield point, or in other words, they require less bending to stay bent.
 
Larrin said:
Any difference from flex would be from thickness and geometry. The only complicating factor would be tension from the steels having different size changes post heat treatment. However, that still wouldn't decrease stiffness. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus. The difference in properties between soft and hard steel comes at yielding. Softer steels have a lower yield point, or in other words, they require less bending to stay bent.
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Larrin,
Thanks, I think :what:
If I understand correctly (which is a big assumption), what that means to the layman is:
The differences are just due to the variances between knives, nothin more.

Thank you. Even if I have to read them several times, I always enjoy and learn from deciphering your posts.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
Not just Takeda. All thinly ground san mai (including Carters) will bend in your fingers if you apply enough pressure. If you don't believe me, try it at your own risk. Thicker san mai blades will bend too, but you will need to apply more force.

What will not bend is when cladding is comparable to core steel. Devin AEB-L san mai is essentially AEB-L throughout, same hardness after heat treating.
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Mark what is the advantage of making a San Mai blade out of the same steel eg. AEB-L?Is it Functional or Asthetic or both?
 
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