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Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:
 
tk59 said:
Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:
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Thanks for sharing:thumbsup:
 
tk59 said:
Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:
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Interesting. I only go up to 10K. Although I just added a Takashima that is up there somewhere. Now I'm trying to figure out what happened between your sharpening and my stropping. You would think 20k and the strops you used would do it but it didn't. (the weight test)

That would be something for your microscope. I imagine the edge got thinned out ever so slightly. I used seven stropping surfaces. I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.
 
Salty dog said:
I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.
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that's what i would expect. the 20k would do a very good job of applying a very fine, even scratch pattern. in my experience, toothy or glassy edges are determined by time on the stone, the strops just maximize whatever scratch pattern has been applied.
 
JBroida said:
that is just not true at all
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If the stone releases slurry constantly, then how is that slurry broken down? Also we should not even be talking about grit on naturals , we should be talking about soft hard, because that is what determines how fine the stone will act. The harder the stone the less slurry release the more slurry breakdown the finer the edge will be.
 
Jon would know. He sold it to me. (I like it BTW)

Actually, I forgot I used it before stropping. Enough to develop a small amount of mud. Very lightly and then a gentle strop.

I also used it for the knives I sent TK. I'm still digging my teeth in it.
 
mainaman said:
If the stone releases slurry constantly, then how is that slurry broken down? Also we should not even be talking about grit on naturals , we should be talking about soft hard, because that is what determines how fine the stone will act. The harder the stone the less slurry release the more slurry breakdown the finer the edge will be.
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to some extent thats true, but also the starting grit of the stone comes into play. Likewise, you can use softer stones that release a lot of slurry with super light pressure and refine grit. I have some a number of softer finishing stones that get finishes better than 8k (some as high as ~15k). Harder stones do refine grit more quickly, but that doesnt mean it cant be done on a softer stone and the starting point does make a big difference.

Lets take an aoto for example... this is a stone that can release a lot of slurry but still breaks down and gets progressively finer as you go
 
JBroida said:
to some extent thats true, but also the starting grit of the stone comes into play. Likewise, you can use softer stones that release a lot of slurry with super light pressure and refine grit. I have some a number of softer finishing stones that get finishes better than 8k (some as high as ~15k). Harder stones do refine grit more quickly, but that doesnt mean it cant be done on a softer stone and the starting point does make a big difference.

Lets take an aoto for example... this is a stone that can release a lot of slurry but still breaks down and gets progressively finer as you go
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true with light pressure one can get a better refinement. The stones do not have grit levels they are all the same when you start but the ones that are harder will allow for more refinement of the slurry and thus prprovide higher level of finish. If you look at slurry of Jant soft and hard stones have the same size particles when freshly raised. Recently one of the razor guys who lives in Japan posted a nice write up on natural stones that discusses that partf of natural stones.

http://japanshave.blogspot.com/2011/03/hows-it-going.html

so what really controls how well a stone will finish is the hardness of the stone
 
Salty dog said:
Interesting. I only go up to 10K. Although I just added a Takashima that is up there somewhere. Now I'm trying to figure out what happened between your sharpening and my stropping. You would think 20k and the strops you used would do it but it didn't. (the weight test)

That would be something for your microscope. I imagine the edge got thinned out ever so slightly. I used seven stropping surfaces. I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.
Click to expand...

Both knives passed the tomato test when they left my hands, although some parts of the Mizuno didn't quite make it due to the damage it sustained during testing. Under the scope, you could see some parts of the edge just weren't getting abraded evenly. The 20k does remove most of the bite to an edge (hence, it's my shaving stone). However, I'm generally able to pass the tomato test, as you showed after using the 20k, if I'm careful. I definitely pass it if I follow up with any sort of strop; loaded or unloaded. My theory is the banging around in the saya did enough misaligning of the edge that it didn't quite do it by the time the brown truck of joy got back to you.
 
yep, probably so. The Mizuno for sure. That saya isn't exactly tight.
 
mainaman said:
true with light pressure one can get a better refinement. The stones do not have grit levels they are all the same when you start but the ones that are harder will allow for more refinement of the slurry and thus prprovide higher level of finish. If you look at slurry of Jant soft and hard stones have the same size particles when freshly raised. Recently one of the razor guys who lives in Japan posted a nice write up on natural stones that discusses that partf of natural stones.

http://japanshave.blogspot.com/2011/03/hows-it-going.html

so what really controls how well a stone will finish is the hardness of the stone
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i've read and discussed similar things with the sharpeners and stone companies i deal with in Japan... a lot of this is very true and the levels of refinement razor guys are looking for come more from hard stones than soft stones. That being said, the level of refinement we are talking about here is not the same. The ability of the particles to break down quickly is also part of the function. I've tested a number of stones at this point and so when i "rate" the stones, i do it more based on my relative experience of what is what. That being said, if you use hard pressure the entire time and work up a ton of mud, never releasing the pressure to refine the mud, the finish will be more coarse. Thats for sure. However, if you work up a slurry and gradually release your pressure you can get refinement on these stones (and many other softer muddy stones... aoto, hakka, etc.).

On a similar note, one of th things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.
 
JBroida said:
On a similar note, one of th things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.
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true until you meet the limit of refinement for the stone.
 
JBroida said:
On a similar note, one of the things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.
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Ah that explains why I was having such a hard time with my King 800/ Aoto synthetic combo when working towards a kasumi finish. I ended up discovering after hours and hours of trying that I could only get consistent results with a light touch. Also, I had been raising a slurry with my lapping plate, but that seemed to work against me somehow. I eventually started with a more or less bare stone and allowed a good supply of water on the stone while working the knife.
 
Potato42 said:
Ah that explains why I was having such a hard time with my King 800/ Aoto synthetic combo when working towards a kasumi finish. I ended up discovering after hours and hours of trying that I could only get consistent results with a light touch. Also, I had been raising a slurry with my lapping plate, but that seemed to work against me somehow. I eventually started with a more or less bare stone and allowed a good supply of water on the stone while working the knife.
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start off harder and move to super light... let the mud do the work. In your mind you should be thinking about only sharpening using the mud... not bringing up any new stone. And with water, you can start with more, but as the mud gets thicker, add just enough water to keep the stone lubricated. Too much and you rinse away the mud you should be trying to refine and too little and it will become to sticky.
 
I got a good start on the 800 king, but I kept getting:angry1: when moving to the Aoto because the nice matte haze I created would get polished right up in no time. Adding to the trouble one of the knives I was working on was a Kumagoro gyuto, and as anyone who has had one knows, those things are rust magnets. 5 minutes untouched and the cladding would be oxidized.

The only way I could keep from ruining the haze built with the 800 king was a light touch on the Aoto. Of course my technique probably isn't the best either. I still haven't been able to completely get the finish I want.
 
Potato42 said:
I got a good start on the 800 king, but I kept getting:angry1: when moving to the Aoto because the nice matte haze I created would get polished right up in no time. Adding to the trouble one of the knives I was working on was a Kumagoro gyuto, and as anyone who has had one knows, those things are rust magnets. 5 minutes untouched and the cladding would be oxidized.

The only way I could keep from ruining the haze built with the 800 king was a light touch on the Aoto. Of course my technique probably isn't the best either. I still haven't been able to completely get the finish I want.
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try a natural stone it should work with no problems
 
I'd love to, but no budget for them.

Next time I have a go at it I'll try and post something about the experience. Maybe even pics or video.
 
As far as pressure is involved, it is worth noting that when you apply great pressure to the blade, the steel is abrading the stone. When you are just resting and sliding the knife on the slurry, after the scratch pattern matches the abilities of the grit, the slurry will also abrade the stone, helping to prevent that kind of fragmentary scratching that was mentioned.
 
I think both Jon and mainaman is right :) !
mainaman just have more experience with razors where its very hard to get finer grit from softer stone doe to small sharpening aria. I can get tomato test out from my softest Hakka and i compared scratch patterns from softest Hakka and 10k Naniwa and from Hakka they was finer but it was with a knife not a razor.
Working with mud with knifes is right thing to do because of very quick mud breakdown. But not always with razors.
So i think Takashima can definitely go up to 15 k with knife or more its just need more refinement on the mud. And BTW i never use strop on my knifes and still can cut tomato with softest Hakka :)
 
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