Shun Dual Core Knives, does the description even make sense?

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I think Shun tested this product heavily, noticed that it retains a toothy edge for a long time, and their spies (hey, spies. What's up?) saw that we occasionally discuss the advantages of a toothy blade, and they ran with it, in terms of marketing. They make good knives, but aren't on cool knives list, so people bash them. Ae they expensive for what they are? Maybe, but I don't believe excessively so, when you compare to a few makers who really couldn't make a piece to rival Shun, and charge even more.
 
Has anyone actually used/sharpened this knife first hand and can comment on how it feels, performs and why they like of dislike it?Shun is not the only maker to produce dual core construction knives.Does anyone have experience using dual core knives?
Best,
salmonkiller
 
I think Rick has. The information is higher up this thread. Or maybe the other one
 
It would still sharpen the same. We're talking MICRO.
 
salmonkiller said:
Has anyone actually used/sharpened this knife first hand and can comment on how it feels, performs and why they like of dislike it?Shun is not the only maker to produce dual core construction knives.Does anyone have experience using dual core knives?
Best,
salmonkiller
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rami_m said:
I think Rick has. The information is higher up this thread. Or maybe the other one
Click to expand...

My experience is with knives of the same construction, three by Devin Thomas and one by Del Ealy. I'm considering picking up the 8" Shun Dual Core K-tipped gyuto. If I do, I'll be glad to review it.

Rick
 
Some information from Carter Cutlery RE: dual core knives I believe he had previously imported knives that were dual core.This type of construction seems to be pretty rare to date.I ponder why everyone tends to dog pile Shun for bringing to market a line using a steel construction that most of us have never tried, used, and experienced.I would like to give it a try in my kitchen even though neither VG10 or VG2 would be near the top of my list of preferred steels.Time will tell for those willing to cough up the dough.....
 
Thank you Rick..I look forward to your review if you pick one up..
Best,
salmonkiller
 
Well, Cutco does drone on and on about the advantages of microserrations, after all.

Someone besides me will eventually buy one and test it to see if there is anything to it. Probably the "miracle knife" de jour though -- I've heard the same things on other fora with an equal dearth of hands-on experience.

Peter
 
I wouldn't believe anything Vector Marketing says. Micro serrations are easy just sharpen to a course edge.Seems like it would be a stretch in my mind to compare some college kid pyramid scheme marketing knife in 440A to a coreless damacus steel that has been used by some very reputable knife makers.For some people Cutco products work perfectly fine and the same goes for Shun.Not everyone is a knifenut.That is why I bear the question if anyone has experience with the coreless steel.I am trying to put and hype and marketing aside and asked for an objective opinion about Shuns dual core line.
best,
salmonkiller
 
All joking aside, this sort of steel is pretty interesting, would love to hear an unbiased review once it's out. My first "good" knife was a Shun and even though I'm more selective with my knife these days, that dual-core Kiritsuke 8" looks great. Any guesses on the HRC of these knives?
 
30 years ago I recall folded steel was all the rage. The custom makers at the time claimed it got sharper and held an edge better than their mono-steel stuff. Their reasoning was that the high-carbon got glass hard, while the low carbon "backing" layers provided toughness.

At the same time I had read articles saying that antique wootz (the only crucible-grade steel prior to the 1700's) blades were superior to their folded-steel Japanese counterparts. So there is conflicting info here right from the early stages of folded steel in the US. And I'd have to say that the article on wootz has to be less biased as compared to the custom makers hype.

If regular high-carbon/low-carbon steel is superior to monosteel, why is it that virtually no high-end Japanese smiths use it anymore in their knives?

There could be some advantage to using 2 CPM alloys in a folded arrangement, but certainly it does not look that way for ordinary steels.

I'd have to say that Cosmos Design's use of s90v and s35vn is more interesting in respect to what Kai/Shun is doing.


Rick
 
The Edge said:
It bugs me that everything they sell tends to be the latest and greatest thing... if everything you sell is the greatest thing ever, then why switch it up constantly... I just tend to look for things a bit more unique.
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This struck me as funny, considering the vast majority of cooks use only one primary knife, while most of us here "switch it up constantly" with lots of expensive 240 gyuto's that -for practical purposes- are not all that unique. Shun is selling items that last years, usually a lifetime. So, yeah, they have to come up with new and better to attract new customers.
 
salmonkiller said:
I wouldn't believe anything Vector Marketing says. Micro serrations are easy just sharpen to a course edge.Seems like it would be a stretch in my mind to compare some college kid pyramid scheme marketing knife in 440A to a coreless damacus steel that has been used by some very reputable knife makers.For some people Cutco products work perfectly fine and the same goes for Shun.Not everyone is a knifenut.That is why I bear the question if anyone has experience with the coreless steel.I am trying to put and hype and marketing aside and asked for an objective opinion about Shuns dual core line.
best,
salmonkiller
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If I've not mistaken, it because the dual-steel sharpens itself when it's used, due to the softer steel wearing out faster. Like the birdeye maple wood someone mentionef here. Theoritically it's different from a coarse edge from a coarse stone, that will dull just as fast.
 
rick alen said:
At the same time I had read articles saying that antique wootz (the only crucible-grade steel prior to the 1700's) blades were superior to their folded-steel Japanese counterparts. So there is conflicting info here right from the early stages of folded steel in the US. And I'd have to say that the article on wootz has to be less biased as compared to the custom makers hype.
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Wootz is ultra-high carbon (1-2% carbon), typically well over 1% (before forging; might drop close to 1% during forging).

The Japanese sword is (usually) a laminated construction, but the edge and the cladding are individually monosteels - no "dual core". The individual parts are folded, but that's the usual treatment for bloomery steel which is smelted in the solid state and full of slag and inhomogeneous. Fold it to drive out slag and homogenise. Typical carbon content for the edge steel is about 0.7%.
 
The folded Japanese swords did not necessarily have cladding, though that would have made construction much easier. As I understand the folded billets were constructed so that when the sword blank was pounded out the layers would be .001-2" thick. Making them any thinner would cause carbon migration from the high-carbon layers, any thicker and the sword wouldn't take a good edge. Once the blank is formed there is much metal removal to get it to shape.

You make a good point Tim, given the carbon content of one to the other we are not really comparing apples to apples in terms of what we can possibly be done with modern steels.


Rick
 
Thanks for the posts Rick/TimoNieminen! It got me to looking around for info on Katana construction, and I found this on Wikipedia:

Katana
220px-Katana_brique.png


I didn't realize either the breadth of construction methods or the complexity of some of them.


rick alen said:
The folded Japanese swords did not necessarily have cladding, though that would have made construction much easier. As I understand the folded billets were constructed so that when the sword blank was pounded out the layers would be .001-2" thick. Making them any thinner would cause carbon migration from the high-carbon layers, any thicker and the sword wouldn't take a good edge. Once the blank is formed there is much metal removal to get it to shape.

You make a good point Tim, given the carbon content of one to the other we are not really comparing apples to apples in terms of what we can possibly be done with modern steels.


Rick
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They are using this exact same method to make kitchen knives and scissors after the outlaw of samurai class.
 
rick alen said:
The folded Japanese swords did not necessarily have cladding, though that would have made construction much easier. As I understand the folded billets were constructed so that when the sword blank was pounded out the layers would be .001-2" thick. Making them any thinner would cause carbon migration from the high-carbon layers, any thicker and the sword wouldn't take a good edge. Once the blank is formed there is much metal removal to get it to shape.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the folded layers are always of the same steel in traditional Medieval and later Japanese swords. The folding is only to get rid of slag in the bloomery steel, and to homogenize the carbon content. Too few folds, and not clean enough or homogeneous enough. Too many, and you lose too much carbon in the forging. The point is that they didn't want high-carbon and low-carbon layers in the folded parts - that's what the laminated construction is for. This is a difference between Japanese sword making and early Medieval European pattern-welded sword making, which did use high- and low-carbon layers.

The unlaminated blades (generally only mid-16th century and later) are often unfolded - these are usually made from imported steel, which was often Indian crucible steel and much cleaner and more homogeneous to start with. Common enough to see unlaminated differentially hardened Chinese knives (good swords were usually sanmei) with no evidence of folding - that's with traditional steel usually mmade by decarburising cast iron, so starts clean.

Not that much metal removal for a katana, not enough to call it stock removal. Forged to shape, with metal removed in the polish/sharpening. "To shape" in this case means to a straight blade; the curve comes from the quenching. If you haven't seen it, you might like video of this: [video=youtube;HOTKVLZlM8Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOTKVLZlM8Q[/video]
 
Sorry, wouldn't be the first time I was thoroughly misinformed. But I look at it this way, if I didn't show my ignorance in places like this I would never know different. Thanks for the correction.


Rick
 
LKH9 said:
They are using this exact same method to make kitchen knives and scissors after the outlaw of samurai class.
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The only difference between katana and yanagiba is that in the first case the protein is tougher and not on a cutting board.
 
Lizzardborn said:
The only difference between katana and yanagiba is that in the first case the protein is tougher and not on a cutting board.
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Well, in Japanese cutlery construction in general, the core steel is the Hagane, and the cladding is the jigane....whereas the swords are the opposite. However, the Hagane is used for the cutting edge in both.
 
The only difference between katana and yanagiba is that in the first case the protein is tougher and not on a cutting board.
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The grind is different, a katana's grind is very thick, like an oversized axe so that it won't chip when hacking at bones. Yanagiba lazers thru food but will chip easily due to the thin edge.

the curve comes from the quenching
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This is the thing that makes yanagibas bend after being quenched.

A good read for those who like swords. http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/contact.html
 
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