Starting freehand ?

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liren1 said:
Wow thanks, a lot of advice coming very quickly!
Yeah, I know technique is most important, and it will probably take me a while, I'm basically a home cook, so my knives get to be used only so much.
To make things easier, I will probably contact Maksim and see what he can offer, I'd rather not buy from the US at the moment, I'll wait until I visit there, hopefully next year some time.
So I understand 3 is what I should be looking for.
The Tojiro was not cheap, in fact too expensive for what it is , especially here in the UK, but that's spilled milk, and no use kicking my self over this. I suppose I can find a cheap carbon knife somewhere or buy the Murata.
I actually have a CCK 1303 cleaver, would that be a good knife to practice on ?
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Sure you can raise a burr on your CCK Cleaver, thin behind the edge kick in your final bevel. Cleaver sharpening you can use same techniques, however it feels different because the handle hand which controls spine height is farther away from the blade edge than on a Gyuto. I have found good place to get old carbons are swapmeets & garage sales. Old carbons for dirt cheap.
 
Timthebeaver said:
I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?
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I agree with that if you have no level of experience or technique. Then it is all about technique. But if you are skilled tools really do matter. Do you expect your expert craftsmen to produce their level of product all on technique? No. Take here in Japan your skilled wood craftsmen. They cannot produce great product unless they have their perfect tools meaning their finely crafted tools (chisels,etc). A good chisel set costs more than $2,000, just for your basic set.

If you're just starting and have no idea what you are doing then it won't matter what tools you use, you won't make a quality product. Once you've raised your level of skill then it does. Put any skilled driver in a Prius and he can only go so fast and get his best time. Upgrade his car, his tool, he can immensely increase his speed, his cornering, his control of the car (his technique) and increase his time.

I've met Carter-San and am not sure when that DVD was made, but he has changed his views from years ago. He's more humbled as a skilled craftsman. If tools didn't matter he would not be in business, he or any or skilled knife craftsmen, because knives are tools of chefs. And if technique only mattered all chefs would be buying china made 5$ knives.

If you ever hear anyone say tools don't matter only technique does, then he is a fool and has much to learn
 
@osakajoe i think you will be surprised at how much i hear craftsmen talk about skill and technique over tools... its not to say that the tools arent important, but they arent as important as learning great technique. Especially in sharpening, great results can be achieved with rather simple tools (i.e. king stones over, say, chocera).
 
Jon, am i right in remembering you saying the maker of your Jin knives uses rudimentary stones and olive oil?
 
I used the large King 1K for years at work & a polishing stone for yanagi's. Do I prefer my Bester 1200 & Gesshin stones, absolutely. When I bought my second Yanagiba from A-Frames he showed me his technique on a Kitayama stone, so I got one of those with the big wood base.

Feel strongly that technique is most important. Aimless sharpening with lousy technique and no focus doesn't matter what stone using. Osakajoe agree that someone already skilled at freehand tools matter. But few people are really good freehand sharpeners even in the food service industry.
 
This has become a very interesting thread indeed. So after all this, and after reading other threads and looking things up elsewhere I'm tossing between Chosera 800 and 3K or JNS 1K and red Aoto synthetic. I'll probably flip a coin. And later on, when the time comes, I will buy a coarse stone, but I probably don't need one now.
Without a doubt these are excellent stones and clearly above my skill level which is, hmm, pretty non existent at the moment. But I intend to have some skill in a few months time, so why not buy good tools ?
To continue the car analogy, a skilled driver may drive faster and take tighter turns on a Fiat Panda than what I can do on a BMW 700 Series, but at least I will do better on a BMW than I will do on a Fiat Panda.. And since the cost of stones is not prohibitive, and they will last me years and years, why not ?
By the way - how do JNS 1K and Sigma Select 1.2 compare ?
 
liren1 said:
This has become a very interesting thread indeed. So after all this, and after reading other threads and looking things up elsewhere I'm tossing between Chosera 800 and 3K or JNS 1K and red Aoto synthetic. I'll probably flip a coin. And later on, when the time comes, I will buy a coarse stone, but I probably don't need one now.
Without a doubt these are excellent stones and clearly above my skill level which is, hmm, pretty non existent at the moment. But I intend to have some skill in a few months time, so why not buy good tools ?
To continue the car analogy, a skilled driver may drive faster and take tighter turns on a Fiat Panda than what I can do on a BMW 700 Series, but at least I will do better on a BMW than I will do on a Fiat Panda.. And since the cost of stones is not prohibitive, and they will last me years and years, why not ?
By the way - how do JNS 1K and Sigma Select 1.2 compare ?
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The car analogy is a very poor one, surely you can see that. A better analogy is that a golfer with a 28-handicap would still be s*** at golf whether armed with a £1000 set of clubs or the hire clubs from the driving range. A scratch golfer would be pretty handy with either set, but will extract the maximum benefit from the superior equipment.

When you're starting out, better stones will not equate to better edges. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it's true. Your skill will be the limiting factor.*

That being said, if you can afford the high end stuff, why not? As a home cook, stones last a long time.


*This is not a slight. I have been freehand sharpening since 2007, and I consider my skill to be limiting (by a country mile).
 
With fast cutting stones that do provide a good feedback the learning process will be much faster. Choseras as proposed are now available at a very reasonable price.
 
If you don't play golf, then you don't play golf.
Golf may be a better analogy - if after 7 years you still consider your skills not up to the standard you require - then maybe you would like to be Tiger Woods, and very very few people ever become Tiger Woods or whoever is top dog at the moment.
Of course my skill will be the limiting factor - I don't don't doubt that - the question is - in 6 months - 1 year will I be able to do more/better with good stones compared to 'cheaper' stones ?
Anyway - for two stones - the cost difference is small especially considering how long they will serve me.
 
The price difference between mediocre stones and good ones is small, and hard composition stones are easier to learn on.

You should be aware though, that there are many, many choices, and as your technique improves, as it will, and your set of knives expands, that there are always "pairings" between stones and knives. You can get a decent long lasting edge on most stone combinations with most knives, but you will find that for any specific knife there will be a progression of stones and strops that produces an astonishingly sharp edge that is difficult or impossible to get with another combination.

One example is fairly soft stainless knives and synthetic "aoto" stones (Naniwa "green brick" and "synthetic blue aoto" of unknown maker) -- sharpening on a 1200 grit Bester and then on the synthetic stone followed by light stropping with chromium oxide on leather or wood will produce a very very sharp edge that will push cut tomatoes with ease. Other knives, particularly hard Japanese steel knives, will not attain that edge with that stone progression, and in fact will often not cut well at all. They require more work with finer grits to refine the edge, but if you try that with the soft stainless it wont' be as "sharp" in use as if was when you stopped with the synthetic aoto.

Just the nature of the beast, if you will.

Peter
 
So knives and tools seems to be having a sale of Naniwa stones. They don't have the 800 I was looking for, but I did just snatch a 1k at 20% discount. I assume/hope that one is just as good... ?
Based on what I read in this forum and previous advice I chose a stone with the base attached.
 
Progress report...
So I got the 1k Chosera and today gave it a try. I decided to set the bar high so to speak and go straight to the Tojiro Senkou which is VG 10. It took me a while , I spent about 40 minutes, but eventually I got something that is almost as good as I could get with Edge Pro. Since this was my first attempt ever at real free hand sharpening on my own knife, I declared victory and called it a day. The sharpness of the edge is not 100% the same along the knife, but it's pretty close. The tip I obviously still need to work on more. Next I will try a carbon Sabatier, I understand it should be somewhat easier.
I honestly think that having used Edge Pro was helpful, but perhaps not strictly necessary, I certainly will not throw it away or sell it, at least not now...
I can also see how freehand can be faster, once one becomes more adept.

So I need a second stone - should I get the Chosera 3k (or the new Professional 3k that replaces it), or something else ?
 
Congratulations so far! A 3k Chosera would be a great choice for further refinement, but especially to get rid of the VG-10 which should get abraded. After that you should really be fine. Perhaps stropping on split leather, denim, newspaper, linen or cardboard will get you a very little further with carbons. I like the Naniwa Snow-White 8k a lot; it provides a toothy but refined edge, while most finer stones will just refine and make you loose some bite.
 
Benuser said:
Congratulations so far! A 3k Chosera would be a great choice for further refinement, but especially to get rid of the VG-10 which should get abraded. After that you should really be fine. Perhaps stropping on split leather, denim, newspaper, linen or cardboard will get you a very little further with carbons. I like the Naniwa Snow-White 8k a lot; it provides a toothy but refined edge, while most finer stones will just refine and make you loose some bite.
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Thanks for this advice. I actually do strop on leather with 1 micron diamond spray. I notice an improvement on the carbon knives, not so much on this Tojiro knife, like it's doing nothing.
I'll get the 3k stone - either the Chosera or the Professional which knifeandtools carries (is there a difference or it's exactly the same only thinner ?)
The 8k snow white - is that also good for he stainless steel knives, or only carbon ?
 
No own experience yet with the new Chosera line.
I use the Snow-White as well for stainless, but that's basically deburring.
 
IMHO, the next & final stone in your progression should be a 5k (ok, maybe a 4k, but 5 is more common/traditional). the 3k isn't enough of a jump/benefit, and stropping with DIA makes more sense than 3k -> 8k.
 
Having a 1k and 3k chosera, I'd jump immediately to a 5k or 6k stone

@mikemac: you were faster ;)
 
The Chosera grits are finer than the JIS. The Chosera 3k corresponds more or less to a JIS4k. The jump from 3k to 8k is great, no need to put a 5k in between, unless you're looking for a very polished edge. Performance wise it's not necessary and perhaps even counter-productive.
 
Benuser said:
The Chosera grits are finer than the JIS. The Chosera 3k corresponds more or less to a JIS4k. The jump from 3k to 8k is great, no need to put a 5k in between, unless you're looking for a very polished edge. Performance wise it's not necessary and perhaps even counter-productive.
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just to clarify, I meant I would skip the 3k stone
 
I see, my fault I guess. I wouldn't skip the 3k. It's a great final stone, and if the OP gets a 8k as I suggested, the 3k is still very useful to shorten the time on the 8k, especially if you want to keep a bity edge.
 
Sure, if one were to buy an 8k, I'd put something in between the 1 and 8 as well. But given the knives, I could live happily with only a 5/6k stone after the 1k (and perhaps a strop or 2).
 
Well, I've got other knives, mostly carbon, and I'm always one to go for excess :)
I ended up with more knives than I need, and knowing myself, I'll end up eventually with more stones than I need. Fortunately for my bank account one thing I'm not interested in is cars, so still driving a 1999 Honda that is worth less than the Devin 270 on sale at the moment ....

I assume then that I will get the 3k first, and then a few weeks later either a 5-6k or the 8k snow white as suggested.
Other than aesthetic reasons (polishing ) - would there be any reason to go above 8-10k ?
 
Also would like to ask - the Chosera came with a little stone, I believe it's called Nagura ? How do I use it and for what exactly ? I've seen some references to it but not a clear explanation as to what exactly I should with it.
 
Traditionally it is being used for cleaning the stone under streaming water and remove steel debris from previous sharpenings. Some use it for creating a bit of mud. I never experienced any contamination from the coarse nagura (JIS600) on the finer sharpening stone.
 
liren1 said:
Other than aesthetic reasons (polishing ) - would there be any reason to go above 8-10k ?
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For kitchen work with double-bevelled blades a fine 3k like the Chosera should do very well. A Snow-white 8k will improve that edge a bit, a lot of other fine stones will above all polish without improving the edge. Some polishing will make your edge to loose its bite.
 
liren1 said:
Also would like to ask - the Chosera came with a little stone, I believe it's called Nagura ? How do I use it and for what exactly ? I've seen some references to it but not a clear explanation as to what exactly I should with it.
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I do believe that the small stone is a 1000 grit which you can get on their Home Stone series.

IF you leave the mud created from it.. then you will hv a mix of grits on the stone.

rgds d
 
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13 & On Forge
 
I would recommend the Choseras , I have 400 1000 5000. and a gesshin 15k, which I don't use it a lot. The feeling of chosera is very good, compared to shapton, kings that I own before.

They also wear slow compared to other brands' same grit stones, and leaves very fine scratches.

Chosera is a good balanced stone.
 
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