Steel of Heiji knives?

[seattle_lee]

"a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing". Oscar Wilde, on the cynic.

This thread is making me want a carbon Heiji.

Go semi-stainless.

You won't regret it.

 

[chinacats]

Go semi-stainless.

You won't regret it.

I did...great knife but I prefer carbon...

 

[TheDispossessed]

there once was a time when i would have preferred semi-stainless, but now i'd go for carbon. Having essentially retired from a pro kitchen and now cooking at home I have less desire than ever to have any stainless knives.

 

[Timthebeaver]

Go semi-stainless.

You won't regret it.

My go-to is a Yoshikane kasumi in SKD-12.

 

[johndavid]

Yeah... i totally get where you are coming from. I see both sides of it. On one hand, customers want to know as much as they can to make informed decisions. On the other hand, sellers want to protect themselves from people trying to copy them or market based on saying certain aspects are the same. Its a tough call most of the time. In this particular case, the choice not to share is Heiji's, so I can just respect his wishes. However, there are many things that i personally choose not to disclose... for example, there are some knives i sell where i choose not to disclose the steel publicly. In most cases, my decision on this is a function of a few different issues...

First, most of the time, knowing the steel type does very little to inform customers about how a knife will act. They are in a much better position as far as understanding goes if they know whether a steel is stainless, carbon, or semi-stainless, whether it is finely grained or a bit more coarse grained, what kind of relative edge retention they can expect, what they can expect in terms of relative ease of sharpening and edge taking, and so forth. So, i try to provide that kind of information. Second, not putting so much out there encourages people to contact us and ask questions, and i prefer to have as much customer interaction as possible. There are many cases where i dont list the steel type, but am happy to share it with people that ask.

Anyways, the main point here is that i see your point and i dont necessarily disagree. I would just hope that people can be more understanding of when craftsmen chose to share or not share information. If you're not particularly happy with the way one goes about this, there are plenty of other craftsmen out there to choose from. But, continuing on and on about how someone is bad for not sharing something they have the right to share or not share gets us nowhere.

I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce.

Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product.

We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.

 

[foody518]

I don't think that what Jon said is unreasonable or trying to mask some deficiency. If you look at the how plenty of Western knives are sold, you pretty much don't know about anything regarding specs of the knife: weight, grind, hardness, steel, thickness, taper, finish. Maybe you get a "high carbon stainless" or "cryo-"something or "forged and triple riveted" which is for the marketing. Certainly much less than what knife vendors Jon and others will describe or are willing to share when asked.
What we do here on the forums is indeed talk about the knives which often goes beyond the fetishizing of a specific steel name and into what the maker does with it, heat treatment, roughly what hardness it gets taken to, the grinds, the finish and aesthetic, whether it's a laser or workhorse or whatever have you... All these things that are factors of skill and craftsmanship
I have a low budget knife that is supposedly white #1 core steel but acts not particularly fine grained at all. I am kind of suspicious it was in some way made overly brittle (even post factory edge). In that way how does it help me knowing the name of the steel? In either case I'm left with the same impression of what I have to deal with.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce.

Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product.

We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.

Sorry, but you're as wrong as a person can be. The decision to share this information is totally up to the craftsman. Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallet, but you'll be excluding some of the best knives available.

Rick

 

[daveb]

Thanks Foodie and Rick. JD you would be hard pressed to be more wrong in my opinion.

Most consumer products on the market are made with proprietary materials and processes. Buyers would not expect to know how their car is made, how their TV is made or even how their kitchenware is made. Some consumers may develop a brand loyalty based on positive experiences, some buy for whiz bang features and some will buy on price. Don't know that anyone buys a car because the maker uses xyz steel in the rear axle.

For a maker to disclose proprietary information would be foolhardy. To conclude that because that information is not disclosed, that all makers are using the same materials and processes is equally so.

Hugs.

 

[JBroida]

I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce.

Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product.

We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.

not really... its a nice way of saying exactly what i said without any need to read in-between the lines or look for meaning that wasnt there

 

[johndavid]

Sorry, but you're as wrong as a person can be. The decision to share this information is totally up to the craftsman.

Rick

I dont think I said otherwise.

Lets put it this way, if the maker used Tamahagane then you would know what type of steel the knife is made up of. It would then be a selling point and not something they wanted to keep secret.

Sure, it takes a good blacksmith to work with high quality steels and obtain desirable results ... but we cant discount the inherit natures of the steel itself and what properties it has intrinsically. This information is important to consumers.

@daveb - absolutely, consumer loyalty due to a track record of quality products plays a role. But to allude that consumers don't care about the intricacies of the products they buy is a misstatement if you ask me. Heck, just read these forums - we seem to care about the details with regards to knives.

We've spent a lot of time preaching that steel type and the blacksmith themselves are important when choosing a knife. Inferior steel leads to an inferior knife. White steel is different from blue steel, etc. To abdicate from this now seems like a mistake for the sake of siding with a good knife maker. BTW - no one is saying dont buy, im saying if they are that good a little transparency wouldnt hurt. If the craftsman is that good then others with the same materials couldnt replicate the same results.

I wont call names but for those who claimed that being transparent with the steel type results in lost revenues due to others being able to easily replicate the qualities of said knife ... you made my earlier point. We arent talking about innovation (neither in the steel nor craftsmanship), merely obscurity.

And no, im not saying that a maker doesn't have the right to protect his products, or the secret metal he uses ... by all means have it legally protected so that you can tell consumers what you are selling without fear of competition. ; )

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

One maker might be very open about his steel, another not, so - vote with your money for however you like it.


...


Always amazed how the japanese seem to make something fine out of D2 variants, given the reputation of D2 (you read "takes a lousy edge and keeps it forever" often)....

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

I dont think I said otherwise.

Your post implied as much.