Takeda ....What to look for (now) to keep from getting screwed

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My only point is that mine doesnt seem to wedge. we do use butternut squash at work and next time i cut one I'll be sure to try the takeda on it. I think the reason for there isnt any wedging is because the big nasty shoulders everybody seems to dislike are pretty asymetric. From a choil view my left shoulder is more pronounced or wider and the right shoulder is maybe 3-4mm taller and much flatter. I think the wedging would occur if the shoulders more even and the bevels similar. But theyre not.
 
I'd say you got lucky, then. The asymmetry probably helps a great deal.
 
I have two Takeda knives that would seem to illustrate this issue well. The word I would use is "inconsistent" but it definitely would not keep me from recommending his knives. The combination of the materials used, edge retention and keenness are excellent for the money. They are functional, practical knives that bear the abuse of a professional kitchen well. I have a Mioroshi Deba that I bought two years ago that drives me absolutely nuts, and a Honesuki that I bought earlier this year that was the exact opposite. The photo speaks for itself. I'm going to severely thin that Mioroshi Deba. I thought it maybe I was just misunderstanding the edge, like it had something to do with his somewhat unorthodox (to my understanding) sharpening style but now I see it was just the grind. That or maybe something to do with the fact that he calls a double bevel knife a "Deba" which is obviously a thick and heavy knife. Thank you everyone!
 
ChefCosta said:
I have two Takeda knives that would seem to illustrate this issue well. The word I would use is "inconsistent" but it definitely would not keep me from recommending his knives. The combination of the materials used, edge retention and keenness are excellent for the money. They are functional, practical knives that bear the abuse of a professional kitchen well. I have a Mioroshi Deba that I bought two years ago that drives me absolutely nuts, and a Honesuki that I bought earlier this year that was the exact opposite. The photo speaks for itself. I'm going to severely thin that Mioroshi Deba. I thought it maybe I was just misunderstanding the edge, like it had something to do with his somewhat unorthodox (to my understanding) sharpening style but now I see it was just the grind. That or maybe something to do with the fact that he calls a double bevel knife a "Deba" which is obviously a thick and heavy knife. Thank you everyone!
Click to expand...

Takeda describes his "mioroshi-bocho" as a "long, narrow kitchen knife with a thick blade", and that's what you have. If you expected a knife with the geometry of a petty, then it's no wonder you are disappointed by it. It's never going to be good at dicing onions, or thinly slicing anything. That's what his petty knives and small yanagibas are good for.

My mioroshi-bocho was very useful for chopping nuts, cutting hard cheeses, and any task where a more delicate blade might be damaged. It was a great knife for breaking down chickens as the edge was able to survive contact with bones without any problems. As I recall, the edge that Takeda put on it was about 20 -25 degrees a side, and I tried to keep it that way.

Rather than attempting to thin your mioroshi-bocho, I'd suggest selling it and getting a small Takeda yanagiba. I doubt that thinning is the answer.

Rick
 
I've been lurking here for quite a while, but obviously this is my first post. I just received my Takeda Nakiri Bocho on Monday, and am very pleased and pleasantly surprised after monitoring this thread and a similar one over on the This Site Not Allowed Here.com forum. I'll put up a few pics of the knife for assurance, but wanted y'all to know that my nakiri is beautifully shaped and even lighter than i expected. It's advertised as 5.2 oz over on CKTG and mine weighs in at 4.8. As you will see, the blade is super thin (hasn't been thinned or sharpened since i got it) and I've cut carrots, potatoes, parsnips, onion, celery, minced herbs, garlic, brunoised shallots, cut through confit pork belly, printer paper, my arm hair and anything else i'm forgetting. I work in a professional kitchen and have handled most of my coworkers' knives that i covet, and I know 100% that this takeda is the sharpest out of the box knife in our kitchen, and the most coveted among coworkers who have used it. Anyway, sorry about the wall of text, just wanted to make my opinion clearly stated. Here are some pics. Obligatory apology about quality.. Iphone **** cam..

So, as i said, i'm a newbie here and haven't quite figured out the whole "picture posting" thing. You'll find an album of 4 pics here:

http://imgur.com/a/LItzA

Edit: I can try to post any additional info/pics/vids if you would like.
 
try an give your iphone a moment to focus before you take the choil shot pics. theyre kinda blurry. glad to hear your enjoying your knife. i work with a guy that loves his tanaka r2 nakiri, im trying to get him to upgrade to takeda. i hear nothing but good things about takeda nikiris.
 
if you put something like a match on the heel close to the choil and focus on the match, you can get a good shot of the choil
 
Thank you for the pointers KKF, i've taken a few more pics of the choil for a better understanding of the blade profile. If there are any more pointers on posting pics i'd be greatly encouraged, also if anything regarding pictures is more accepted please let me know. Below are a couple choil shots of my takeda nakiri. I am pleased.
 
Pensacola Tiger,
I only butcher fish, seam bone and portion meat with the Mioroshi-bocho. I use it in situations where the blade height of my Hon-deba makes for awkward knife strokes. Like I said I had trouble understanding and following Takeda's grind on the Mioroshi. Could totally be my fault. The grind on the honesuki was easy to find and follow. It would be easy for me to assume in the context of the previous 10 pages of posts about "wedge monsters" that my issues with the Mioroshi may have something to do with the grind. My plan is to thin it at the shoulders, widening the blade road, and put a compound bevel on it for strength though that steel with his heat treatment probably doesn't need it. I believe that Takeda puts a clamshell bevel anyway.
 
putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy. if one doesn't know how to drive manual transmission, then is it not logical to say that it's a bit nonsensical to use a 500HP sports car for learning? i know how to ride a motorcycle but have never actually owned one, and there's no way i would pick up a yamaha r1 as my first, more like kawasaki 250. by the way i love an m3 in stock form :D civic si not so much but would totally own an s2000 if it weren't for those damn digital gauges. but cars aren't my thing, i drive a plain civic ex, maybe get an rsx-s later that's about it.

a purposely thick knife and complaining that it's not thin enough... i'll be nice and not touch that one, pensacola tiger has already explained the irony there.

thinness is not all there is to blade performance. if you really want thinner behind the edge then that can be dealt with. however if it wasn't forged properly and that hollow in the middle of the blade faces is jacked up or incomplete then that is worthy of sending back. i think some folks are over reacting and trying to attack the problem instead of circumventing it all together by going in a more optimal path. ie get something with less variables.

labor of love might be onto something with the asymmetry. i've come to realize that i grind the left shoulder smooth and keep the right one pretty 'wedgy' and it performs beautifully this way.

on the other hand i'm willing to bet most takeda owners only got it because it looks cool not taking into considering its actual performance.
 
ChefCosta said:
Pensacola Tiger,
I only butcher fish, seam bone and portion meat with the Mioroshi-bocho. I use it in situations where the blade height of my Hon-deba makes for awkward knife strokes. Like I said I had trouble understanding and following Takeda's grind on the Mioroshi. Could totally be my fault. The grind on the honesuki was easy to find and follow. It would be easy for me to assume in the context of the previous 10 pages of posts about "wedge monsters" that my issues with the Mioroshi may have something to do with the grind. My plan is to thin it at the shoulders, widening the blade road, and put a compound bevel on it for strength though that steel with his heat treatment probably doesn't need it. I believe that Takeda puts a clamshell bevel anyway.
Click to expand...

My remarks were based on the (incorrect) assumption that you were expecting something like a petty. The mioroshi I had was a shorter blade, but I don't recall a sharp shoulder. Your plan sounds as if it would work.



Rick
 
panda said:
on the other hand i'm willing to bet most takeda owners only got it because it looks cool not taking into considering its actual performance.
Click to expand...
I got one because I was hoping to avoid purchasing a lot of knives and there was some hype about his nakiri on these fora that I fell for.

Now that I've mostly flattened the bevel, the thing seems to be an excellent anti-stick cutter with only slight wedge tendencies in thick stuff (it wedged in the raw 8cm carrot butt that I showed, but that's a little extreme). I might work on the asymmetry and final convexing a little to see if I can optimize it, but it's doing pretty well so far:
UjZkI2t.jpg
 
labor of love said:
I like the original grind your knives had more magnus. Mine is like that but the bevels and the grind are a bit more asymetrical. Amazing for food release. And just a fantastic cutter all around.
Click to expand...

let's agree to disagree. i had to use more force on potatos once the shoulder hit the surface of the potatos and it didnt cut smoothly, wedged thruw things almost like ripping in half. same with carrots.
 
panda said:
Wedging is not much of an issue with good technique. Those who can't alter geometries themselves shouldn't even bother with hand made knives.
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lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.
 
Mr.Magnus said:
lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.
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I agree. I was paranoid about my knife after I paid for it, and would have been very very discouraged from the hobby had it been as bad as some have gotten. Some folks don't mind the work...I'm waiting for a 300-grit stone to finish working a Zakuri bevel and think it's kind of enjoyable...but the knife only cost me $45usd or so. I haven't bothered trying to work on my $200+ Asai and have been wondering if I should track someone down to help...it's just sitting unused in the next room.
 
panda said:
putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy. if one doesn't know how to drive manual transmission, then is it not logical to say that it's a bit nonsensical to use a 500HP sports car for learning? i know how to ride a motorcycle but have never actually owned one, and there's no way i would pick up a yamaha r1 as my first, more like kawasaki 250.
Click to expand...
I mean, you pretty much took my whole analogy way out of context or moved the goal posts.

Not trying to be overly serious here, but I wasn't inferring anything about not knowing how to drive stick or being a wack new driver.

I am saying you buy an M3 cause you know it's sick value for the money and a super fast, sick, fun car. You don't buy it expecting a Ferrari, but you do know it has the potential to literally match a Ferrari's performance with less cache if you send it to an elite tuner like Dinan or AC Schnitzer and dump $70K+ into on top of the sticker price.

So when you buy a knife like a Takeda, although you know it won't ever reach it's full potential if you don't either know how to put it to the stones yourself or send it to an ace pro sharpener, you still expect it to be straight tight out of the box. What you don't expect and shouldn't accept is it being comparable to some $80 project knife when it cost at least $260 new.

But again, I wasn't personally speaking about the Takeda, I'm just calling it by name in this post because this is a Takeda thread, I was/am speaking on your original comment that you shouldn't buy a handmade knife if you can't change geometries, basically inferring novice sharpeners shouldn't expect top notch performance out of the box and instead should expect a lame project knife.
 
Mr.Magnus said:
lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.
Click to expand...

:plus1: Personally whenever I see "Takeda" now will just move away
 
Just to add a couple thoughts I wasn't clear about...

Yes, with a handmade rustic style blade and really any knife, there is expected upkeep and maintenance and just some touching up to get it where it should be, I think most here understand that, just like in the analogy, where most who buy an M3 understand it's more finicky and demanding then a regular Bimmer, but to beat a dead horse, it doesn't mean knives like these should come out of the box underperforming to the extreme where they're only comparable to a blade at a price point akin to literally a 3rd of it's value or less.

That is all haha.
 
I'm by no means an expert on knives but I would think there would be some level of consistency even with a completely handmade knife given his expertise.

It also makes me wonder if the people who receive the ones with no issues are the ones made by Takeda himself while the other ones, like my wedgie, was made by an apprentice. It is an awesome cutter though, after it was thinned.
 
panda said:
putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy.
Click to expand...

It's called absurdum ad reductio, and this was a perfect use, if I do say so myself.
 
jake, i still don't know what that means, i pretty much failed latin in HS lol.

ccarney2 - yours looks great, keep on enjoying it without caution! eventually, you will have to thin both sides. i recommend you thin lightly every sharpening session. when i have a knife performing the way i want, i keep doing light thinning starting on a 600 stone. some will argue that's unnecessary removal of metal, but that's their take, i like doing it this way, means i won't have to do major work later on.
 
Always remove some of the secondary bevel to keep to profile as the maker intended. You wont be able to maintain the intended edge if you dont do so.
 
I agree with this thread, my Takeda 270 mm Gyuto came with a wedger just 2 cm behind the edge and then was concave in the middle of the blade and tapered nicely towards the spine after. Some thinning later and she's a beaut but it took some time.
 
My experiences with takada was that it was wedging really bad when i got it. After 10 hours on the stones it performs great. it just slides though anything. Now the strip without the finish is much wider and it stains a lot.
It sharpens really fast and it has very good edge retention.
 
vlad8 said:
After 10 hours on the stones it performs great.
Click to expand...
That's some dedication and tolerance right there.
If I spent 4+bones on a knife and had to spend that kind of time to get her running right, i'd hurt someone.
Again, some are willing to cut him a LOT of slack.
 
I recently bought a Takeda folding Higo and I was surprised to find it was scandi ground cut beautifully .As for the spate of thicker Takedas ( I would love one -perhaps nest year) I do not own one I did buy a 7" Honyaki Usuba - Takagi which I felt was a bit broad on the beam which I have thinned down( since it is an Honyaki I hardly change possible +5˚ the angle at the bevel and since my original raising the original Shinogi line I now sharpen from that line each time maintaining the new geometry.
I enjoy making my knives fit my needs I have a Seki cut Yangiba and i have thinned it down from the Shinogi a couple of times I think to a certain extent if you want the best ideally you need to know how to sharpen and thin it .
I bought one knife with Hap 40 steel bevel and I needed to sharpen it immediately it was hardly cutting through a pepper skin.
Perhaps part of the deal of leaving Takedas thick is so that it allows for personal edge preferences some may favour an asymmetric bevel 70-30 or more radical this thick edge gives the owner a choice thin it symmetrically or put an asymmetric bevel on it . I like the idea of having some surplus steel to deal with and I guess it accommodates less disciplined use of it.
If I wanted a bog standard out the box knife i would buy a Kai Shun - I do have one which was my first Japanese knife but I much prefer the knives I have worked on to the Shun .
 
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