Talk me out of a Shun Premier Nakiri as my first "higher-end" knife!

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Wow! Something aint right.
I have noticed that Chef knives to go is not spoken of here, I just thought it had to do with "no vendor=no talk" like many forums do. Seems reasonable as in no-free-advertising. But now there seems to be a whoooole other issue going on unknowns to me and obviously many others here in our community.
I will gladly say that I've had nothing but good experiences here on the forum and CKTG.
If there is some kind of blood feud going on, I think it only fair to all of us here on the forum, that all the cards get laid out on the table.
In other words, "What the hell is this all about?"
This serious.
 
Thanks Rick. Tonight is sushi nite so it's about to meet a case of mushrooms and a gillion scallions. I'll let it kiss the stones when I'm done. Blue good.
 
daveb said:
...The Watanabe Pro is also stainless clad, I think the core is white steel...
Click to expand...

Pensacola Tiger said:
Dave, the core steel is aogami (blue paper).
Click to expand...

So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?

With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?
 
From watanabe website the ferrule on the Pro series knives is made form Buffalo horn, not plastic. So there is no need to swap it, unless of course you do not like it.

Carbon blade with stainless clad means that's the part of the core steel that is exposed can rust or react with food. Usually it's the edge itself and about half cm upwards. The rest of the blade will not rust. But sine the patina will form on the core steel rather quickly it will create a cool contrast and practically remove the reactivity. In another words carbon core with stainless clad is very nice middle ground.

However, you should always take care of the knife if it's stainless or carbon. Wipe it clean after each use and not let it seat in the sink or other dump places.
GL.
 
I hope I didn't start this little spat by suggesting the vendor of Knife X may not provide the most objective review of Knife X. On JKI's site the reviews of JKI products are for the most part postive. On JNS's site it's the same. On TOGO site it's also the same. And that is all to be expected. Most of the users of these sites are happy with the sites or they couldn't stay competitive.

The point I was trying to make with my "How's the pie?" analogy is that only with TOGO does the website purport to be a forum offering objective purchasing advice. Read them all, take what is useful but don't expect any of vendor sites to reflect anything other than opinions of mostly satisfied customers.

Aaamx wrote:

aaamax said:
Wow! Something aint right.
I have noticed that Chef knives to go is not spoken of here, I just thought it had to do with "no vendor=no talk" like many forums do. Seems reasonable as in no-free-advertising. But now there seems to be a whoooole other issue going on unknowns to me and obviously many others here in our community.
I will gladly say that I've had nothing but good experiences here on the forum and CKTG.
If there is some kind of blood feud going on, I think it only fair to all of us here on the forum, that all the cards get laid out on the table.
In other words, "What the hell is this all about?"
This serious.
Click to expand...

Aaamax, For many that have been around awhile the animosity is real and relevent. I'm not sure of how relevent and will not point you in that direction nor "put cards on the table" and stir this particular pot. If you must drag it up, google. But pls don't.

Lot of Type A personalities here, hell I've got one hanging in the closet somewhere. How bout just helping the OP find the knife he's looking for?
 
I'm not much of a nakiri guy, but the best two cutters I've tried are Watanabe and Carter and the Carter is probably out of your price range. I'd get the Watanabe and if you like it (you will), get it rehandled.

Edit to say, just read Ruso's comment about the handle, and looks like you are all set. I do remember reading that he was sending some knives with plastic that used to get horn, not sure which those are...I last bought a gyuto about a year ago and it was finished in horn.

One more edit to say that Shinichi (Watanabe) speaks very English so communication is not a problem.
 
lukehod said:
So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?
Click to expand...

As Ruso said, only the few millimeters of exposed core will react. Aogami is not a particularly reactive steel in comparison to SK-4, for example, and in my experience will not be a problem with regard to transfer of taste to food.

There is a lot of comment about chipping thrown around in this forum (and others), but the fact is that chipping is caused by either poor technique, sharpening to too acute an angle, or both. The aogami in Watanabe's knives is no more prone to chipping than any other steel.

With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?
Click to expand...

According to Watanabe's website, the 180 mm nakiri has a plastic ferrule while the 165 mm has a horn ferrule. Since you've indicated that you are looking for the shorter one, there should be no need to ask about upgrading. If you change your mind and want the 180, then the whole handle will need to be upgraded, not just the ferrule. At least that has been my experience.

Of course, you may just want to have a custom handle made for it, like the one I had:

IMG_3171.jpg

Rick
 
Ruso said:
From watanabe website the ferrule on the Pro series knives is made form Buffalo horn, not plastic. So there is no need to swap it, unless of course you do not like it.

Carbon blade with stainless clad means that's the part of the core steel that is exposed can rust or react with food. Usually it's the edge itself and about half cm upwards. The rest of the blade will not rust. But sine the patina will form on the core steel rather quickly it will create a cool contrast and practically remove the reactivity. In another words carbon core with stainless clad is very nice middle ground.

However, you should always take care of the knife if it's stainless or carbon. Wipe it clean after each use and not let it seat in the sink or other dump places.
GL.
Click to expand...

Oh I take care of all my kitchen utensils like I still work in a kitchen, I doubt that habit will ever leave haha so no need to worry about that. On the Watanabe listing it says
Handle: D-shaped burnt chestnut wood with plastic hilt
Click to expand...
so I think it isn't bone anymore?

There is also a 165mm nakiri listed that does have a bone handle so maybe that would be better for me. Not sure if I need 180mm of blade anyways. Thoughts?

EDIT: I wrote this before I saw Pensacola Tiger's post. I think the 165mm is my best bet then!
 
I really enjoy my 18cm, glad I went with that one.
I inquired about the handle and decided to stick with plastic. Works well for me.

This was the reply to the inquiry:
--------
Thanks for your mail. I'm Shinichi from Watanabe blade.
Yes, 165mm has horn hilt.
180mm are plastic hilt.
Blades are same material and finish. Both thickness are almost same.

JPY7,000 extra for chestnut with horn of Nakkiri 180mm.
-------
 
I usually get the shuns at WS. I look for deals, and I've gotten friendly with the girls who work there and use my 20% off coupon.
 
Also, my dad has the Shun VG-10 Damascus style on a couple of his knives, and it is a lot more chippy than their other lines.

There is a multitude of people here that bought a Shun at one time or another and have moved on. You can always post in BST to inquire if someone has one or two sitting in a drawer or roll not getting used.

Good luck.
 
wrobelan said:
Also, my dad has the Shun VG-10 Damascus style on a couple of his knives, and it is a lot more chippy than their other lines.

There is a multitude of people here that bought a Shun at one time or another and have moved on. You can always post in BST to inquire if someone has one or two sitting in a drawer or roll not getting used.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

The chippiness is kind of scaring me to be honest. It doesn't seem like I can post a WTB thread in the BST, is it because I am new? What are the requirements for posting in there? I can't find it in the FAQs anywhere...
 
lukehod said:
So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?

With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't pay full price for Shun. The few Shuns I have were acquired at half price at most. If you're set on a Shun Premier nakiri I'd scan eBay and Google regularly to see if any pop up for sale.

Carter nakiris are great but the problem isn't just the price, it's that he makes very few of them and when they come up they sell out almost immediately. You'd have to get on the mailing list and wait patiently, checking your email diligently, for months and months, to see if a stainless or high grade nakiri is available.

I have a Watanabe pro 180mm and it's a lotta knife. In contrast the Shun Premier at 5 1/2 inches is ~139mm. You'd want a smaller Watanabe. Fortunately he also makes pro nakiris in 120mm, 150mm, and 165mm. The ordering process is fairly simple. Go to http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/ and click around and research the various offerings. Then email Shinichi on the site's email function with any questions (size, weight, materials used, options). When you decide ask him to send you a PayPal invoice. Painless. For example, I asked to switch the plastic ferrule to buffalo horn for an extra 7000 yen. It got to NYC within 6 days. The exchange rate from yen to dollars right now is good.

You might want to look into Masakage nakiris, I've been reading good things. If edge retention is your priority then Gihei makes a HAP40 steel nakiri that's available at http://www.japanesechef.com.au/gihei.html (that's Aussie dollars and they ship to the US). Gihei Hap40 sold out on another websitethatshallnotbenamed within hours after being out-of-stock since last year. Or, you could try a Tojiro DP nakiri. Cheap as hell ($50 on Amazon), decent steel (VG10 same as the Shun), stainless, western handle. You can abuse it all you want, learn to sharpen on a whetstone with it (look into a 1000/6000 large dual King on epicedge.com), and just see if you even like the nakiri shape before moving on to an upgrade. In fact, I'd look into Tojiro DP as a general upgrade to all your Victorinix knives.
 
The guidelines for using BST are contained within that forum at: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23206-Guidelines-for-B-S-T

The typical size question is 165 or 180. I have a 165 Carter that's very well made, quite nimble and fun to use. But it gets pretty small fast if I'm using it for more that a couple people. I reach for the 180 more often because of the size advantage. If I'm doing half dozen scallions the 165 is fine. If I'm doing a bunch or bunches then it's the 180 turn.
 
If you are not in a hurry and can wait for it to come back in stock, another option is Kato's nakiris:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-nakiri-165mm/
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-180mm-kurouchi-nakiri/

I got mine used at BST. It wasn't sharp when i got it, but after putting into the stones, it became my main nakiri for tomatoes. F&F not as good as Watanabe's and heel not as high (like Watanabe's higher heel better), but it cuts very well. It is also sold very quickly when it becomes available at JNS.
 
lukehod said:
The chippiness is kind of scaring me to be honest. It doesn't seem like I can post a WTB thread in the BST, is it because I am new? What are the requirements for posting in there? I can't find it in the FAQs anywhere...
Click to expand...


I couldn't recommend the VG-10 blades that are Damascus. My solid VG-10 from Shun are good, not at all chippy. I am not sure if the Premier line in Vg-10 is solid or layered. They have the solid blade in the Edo line, and I actually prefer that handle to the Premier. However, I think the listings that I have seen are way too high.
 
wrobelan said:
I couldn't recommend the VG-10 blades that are Damascus. My solid VG-10 from Shun are good, not at all chippy. I am not sure if the Premier line in Vg-10 is solid or layered. They have the solid blade in the Edo line, and I actually prefer that handle to the Premier. However, I think the listings that I have seen are way too high.
Click to expand...

I think he was referring to the watanabe in regards to chipping.

On chipping I would like to second Rick's comments. I have yet to chip one of my higher end knives as i take care of them. One is VG and it performs great. I don't baby it to much. You just have to be careful of how thin the edge is and how you use it.

I will say i have (our at least someone has) chipped my scanpan chefs knife, but this is likely due to me putting too acute of an angle on the knife as well as just using it as a beater.
 
I'm surprised no one has recommended a Shigefusa nakiri (sold by Maksim at JNS, but also various and sundry other places). Shigefusa is considered one of the finest makers of knives, period. His kurouchi knives are in your price range. Though not in stock at JNS right now, you can get on his e-mail list for when they come in. I have one of his korouchi petties (as well as a gyuto and a yanagiba), and I love it.
 
malexthekid said:
I think he was referring to the watanabe in regards to chipping.
Click to expand...

No I just worded it really weird sorry. I had heard a few bad things about chipping with the shun.

I think I am set on getting the Watanabe nakiri at this point. I just need to figure out what size is right for me. I am leaning towards the 160mm tbh since 180mm seems like more than I really need.

Maybe someone will post a listing for a used one in the BST so I don't have to go too far ahead of my budget :p

You guys rock by the way. There's a ton of knowledge in this forum and I'm looking forward to hanging around here!
 
You should keep hanging around and checking the topics. There is a solid core group here that dispenses a great deal of knowledge by sharing its experience. I have certainly learned a lot on this forum.

Best of luck with your hunting.
 
When going from my Tanaka 16.5cm nakiri (VG10, great value for money!) to the Watanabe 18cm, it didn't feel like that much longer. When going back to the Tanaka, the Tanaka did feel rather short though. Additionally, the extra weight aids me with cutting (which surprised me, I was coming from the "lighter-is-better" point of view).
The Watanabe is really thin behind the edge and the steel is rather hard, so I use a microbevel on one side (to compensate for my poor technique ;) ).
The choil and spine could use some easing (which is easy to do, but I haven't gotten around to it yet).
I decided to not upgrade the handle. I figured that if I wouldn't like the handle, I'd rather put a custom handle on it than picking the horn option. But the plastic ferrule doesn't bother me (I was worried about that before buying the knife).

2 pics of my knife:


 
Quote from forum:
"**Authorized Vendor List**
Please support our vendors - their support keeps KKF running
Moderators:knyfeknerd"

So... it is a marketplace? ....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry you feel that way MD.

Any unbiased review of this forum will find recommendations for supporting vendors and those that are "off the reservation" are about equal. That some of our supporting vendors share their knowledge through participation here is a huge positive. They do a great job of providing advice and experience without pushing their wares.

I have yet to see any contribution from one of the "off the reservation" vendors that are frequently suggested, i.e. JCK, AFrames, RakMart, Blueway and others. Yet their products are both recommended and linked to.

In short, your argument falls flat.

Best,

Dave
 
Watanabe is an excellent choice. I agree with the above too: when it comes to nakiris I really the heavier ones. I never thought I would until I got a heavier and longer Asai - I like thin and lighter knives - but the right weight does half the work for you. So don't chicken out on getting the 180mm. One concern though: at 64 HRC this *may* be tougher to sharpen to a novice.

For that reason I'd also suggest the itinomonn 180mm. I owned both the Watanabe and Itinomonn for a short time and it was very hard to tell the difference. Both have excellent grinds, though the more polished finish of the Itinomonn *occasionally* allowed it to slide through food better. Otherwise the grind was so similar they felt the same. Watanabe felt just the slightest bit heavier, but I liked the weight of both very much. The only downside to the Itinomonn was that the edge did not extend that far up the curved tip. If you have stones or sent it to Dave M this is no big deal, but something to consider. For the money I think the Itinomonn is the best value.
 
MD. I've explained to you why I've done what I've done. I will not argue about admin of the forum - about a knife sure.

I'm done with this segue. So are you. Get over it.

(Sorry jim - doing this from fon)
 
Does anyone know if the Premier Shun in question is ground flat on the other side? I had a Shun Nakiri many years ago that was kind of like an usuba(beveled only on one side, but a 50/50 edge) that was actually a fun knife.
I did own a Premier Shun bread knife a while back. The "bling" factor originally drew me to it, but in the end is why I let it go. Too damn shiny. The handles are comfortable, but after handling other knives they feel somewhat "unnatural".
For a first nakiri, the Tojiro shirogami is a good intro(or at least it used to be) to carbon steel and care. They're super-cheap and you can learn all about reactivity!
 
knyfeknerd said:
Does anyone know if the Premier Shun in question is ground flat on the other side? I had a Shun Nakiri many years ago that was kind of like an usuba(beveled only on one side, but a 50/50 edge) that was actually a fun knife.
I did own a Premier Shun bread knife a while back. The "bling" factor originally drew me to it, but in the end is why I let it go. Too damn shiny. The handles are comfortable, but after handling other knives they feel somewhat "unnatural".
For a first nakiri, the Tojiro shirogami is a good intro(or at least it used to be) to carbon steel and care. They're super-cheap and you can learn all about reactivity!
Click to expand...

The Premier line is ground 50/50. It's the Pro (now the Pro II) line that is ground flat on one side.

I appreciate your subtle sense of humor when you recommend a Tojiro shirogami because "you can learn all about reactivity" with it . I've owned one, and cannot recommend that particular line for anything other than poorly made knife-shaped objects. I'd almost rather have a Rachael Ray Furi.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top