The Deba thread again

[Deckhand]

See, my first response(in my head that is) was- is he referring to the prep crews versus the line in sushi restaurants? Then I thought maybe he means yakitori joints (or ramen, or whatever else) versus sushi joints? And then I thought: most of these knives are based on years of very extensive experience with very specific foods. Do you mean to tell me that no 'real' sushi chefs use takobiki's? They're just made as an item of curiousity for gullible westerners? I can understand the concept of mastering the basics on certain knives. But why are there so many of these very specialized knives out there? Because they are useful would be my guess. I dunno. I'm just an uneducated gaijin...

 

[GlassEye]

See, my first response(in my head that is) was- is he referring to the prep crews versus the line in sushi restaurants? Then I thought maybe he means yakitori joints (or ramen, or whatever else) versus sushi joints? And then I thought: most of these knives are based on years of very extensive experience with very specific foods. Do you mean to tell me that no 'real' sushi chefs use takobiki's? They're just made as an item of curiousity for gullible westerners? I can understand the concept of mastering the basics on certain knives. But why are there so many of these very specialized knives out there? Because they are useful would be my guess. I dunno. I'm just an uneducated gaijin...

I have been pondering this subject quite a bit. One really has to understand the expanse of Japanese cuisine and the history of the food and culture (to some extent), to understand how the common styles of traditional Japanese knives have developed, and existed for quite some time. There is so, so much more than just sushi to Japanese cuisine, and a specialized knife for each task; deba, usuba, yanagiba can have many uses outside of sushiya. Why can't a serious sushi guy use kiritsuke or mioroshi deba, or a serious yakitori guy use a petty, etc. Many serious sushi guys already use their yanagiba to do usuba work to save time, how would it be wrong if they used a knife that did both (kiritsuke) a little better?

 

[brainsausage]

I have been pondering this subject quite a bit. One really has to understand the expanse of Japanese cuisine and the history of the food and culture (to some extent), to understand how the common styles of traditional Japanese knives have developed, and existed for quite some time. There is so, so much more than just sushi to Japanese cuisine, and a specialized knife for each task; deba, usuba, yanagiba can have many uses outside of sushiya. Why can't a serious sushi guy use kiritsuke or mioroshi deba, or a serious yakitori guy use a petty, etc. Many serious sushi guys already use their yanagiba to do usuba work to save time, how would it be wrong if they used a knife that did both (kiritsuke) a little better?

I suppose the only issue would be if you worked in a very regimented kitchen. But it's my understanding that quite a few of these knives take many hours of use and training to fully master. Especially the kiritsuke. The comparably lackadaisacal style of knife work that the majority of us western chefs practice( not all of course, and I'm speaking in broad terms of comparison ), using typically just a crappy profiled 'chef' knife and a parer, make it a little harder to conceive of the level of training that goes into learning to use some of these very specialized knives. All that being said- there is a very specific reason that they exist: because they lead to a more precise finished product. Although in the same token- tell any guy who knows how to properly wield a 8.5x4" chuka that he needs 3 knives to do proper prep, and he'll probably cleaver-slap you on the ear I've used my CCK 1303 (I think? It's the long one, about 240-270mm) to supreme oranges with. Just had to choke wayyyy up on the spine. Would it have been easier with a petty? Of course, but my kit was downstairs and we needed those damn supremes now! My point is that, 'real' chefs use the knives they have on hand, master them, and aren't afraid to learn new techniques with different styles of knives. Knowing full well that it will improve their overall technique and lead to a fuller representation of the cuisine that they are trying to implement. I think this ethic extends to every aspect of food. Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder in many regards IMHO

 

[Deckhand]

I have been pondering this subject quite a bit. One really has to understand the expanse of Japanese cuisine and the history of the food and culture (to some extent), to understand how the common styles of traditional Japanese knives have developed, and existed for quite some time. There is so, so much more than just sushi to Japanese cuisine, and a specialized knife for each task; deba, usuba, yanagiba can have many uses outside of sushiya. Why can't a serious sushi guy use kiritsuke or mioroshi deba, or a serious yakitori guy use a petty, etc. Many serious sushi guys already use their yanagiba to do usuba work to save time, how would it be wrong if they used a knife that did both (kiritsuke) a little better?

This has really turned out to be a positive discussion. It is my understanding kiritsuke is only used by master chefs in Japan. As you are saying knives are very specialized like an ajikiri for Horse mackerel. I am not sure but I thought funayuki knives were used by fisherman in a specific region as an all purpose knife. I am sure some knives were specific to regions as well as some knives to specific tasks. Jon or Mari probably have the best knowledge of information on this subject. I have seen a list on the Internet that was lacking and the Wikipedia also was lacking. It would be great if we had a sticky made by an individual or group stating uses and regions more specifically. It is definitely a subject we are all passionate about.

 

[mhlee]

I have been pondering this subject quite a bit. One really has to understand the expanse of Japanese cuisine and the history of the food and culture (to some extent), to understand how the common styles of traditional Japanese knives have developed, and existed for quite some time. There is so, so much more than just sushi to Japanese cuisine, and a specialized knife for each task; deba, usuba, yanagiba can have many uses outside of sushiya. Why can't a serious sushi guy use kiritsuke or mioroshi deba, or a serious yakitori guy use a petty, etc. Many serious sushi guys already use their yanagiba to do usuba work to save time, how would it be wrong if they used a knife that did both (kiritsuke) a little better?

I'm certainly no expert about Japanese knives, but I don't agree that a kiritsuke is a better knife than a yanagiba. In fact, just based on my observations about a true kiritsuke (taller, long single bevel knife; I've never used one though), and my experience using a yanagiba, I would say that a yanagiba is likely a far better of a knife than a kiritsuke when used for the specific tasks it is meant for, e.g., skinning, slicing, especially usuzukuri, than a kiritsuke.

 

[DwarvenChef]

Ok lets keep the veiled bashing at a minimum. An oppinion was presented and thats all well and good, I asked for these and I'm glad they are out there. No need to bash anyone one really, nothing posted here has been 100% off center, short of the bashing posts...

 

[DwarvenChef]

It would be great if we had a sticky made by an individual or group stating uses and regions more specifically. It is definitely a subject we are all passionate about.

This would be cool for a sticky. Knowing the history of any given knife could give a potential buyer more insight into that purchase. Knowing exactly what the Takobiki was designed for would attract a buyer looking to make that cut.

Plus I just like knowing more info about my interests than I really need LOL

 

[Deckhand]

This would be cool for a sticky. Knowing the history of any given knife could give a potential buyer more insight into that purchase. Knowing exactly what the Takobiki was designed for would attract a buyer looking to make that cut.

Plus I just like knowing more info about my interests than I really need LOL

Me too and sorry I took the bait up the thread I knew I shouldn't have, but I like people here and believe everyone has something to add. Didn't like the us vs them. Sorry:beatinghead:

 

[brainsausage]

This would be cool for a sticky. Knowing the history of any given knife could give a potential buyer more insight into that purchase. Knowing exactly what the Takobiki was designed for would attract a buyer looking to make that cut.

Plus I just like knowing more info about my interests than I really need LOL

I agree fully. And I hope my opinions didn't come across as bashing btw. I was just trying to engage in a little debate. I'll be the last one to say I know the last thing about anything. Nor did I intend to derail the thread. Posting after a couple beers tends to cloud my sensitivity towards certain issues tho

 

[DwarvenChef]

It's all good It just felt like it was starting down that path and I wanted to head it off. After I posted I saw that things leveled off and the thread was flowing well So rock on guys

I like that there are so many verieties out there and have this silly urge to play with them all. But I like to use them for thier intended style. Even though I have no clue what most of the styles are I'm reading Japanese Kitchen Knives again to try and get a full understanding of the current core styles.

 

[brainsausage]

It's all good It just felt like it was starting down that path and I wanted to head it off. After I posted I saw that things leveled off and the thread was flowing well So rock on guys

I like that there are so many verieties out there and have this silly urge to play with them all. But I like to use them for thier intended style. Even though I have no clue what most of the styles are I'm reading Japanese Kitchen Knives again to try and get a full understanding of the current core styles.

I used to have a link bookmarked on my phone to a thread on the old forum, that had a pretty in depth list. I used to reference it a lot. I think the bookmark disappeared when I setup my 4s back in February.

 

[ThEoRy]

I'm certainly no expert about Japanese knives, but I don't agree that a kiritsuke is a better knife than a yanagiba. In fact, just based on my observations about a true kiritsuke (taller, long single bevel knife; I've never used one though), and my experience using a yanagiba, I would say that a yanagiba is likely a far better of a knife than a kiritsuke when used for the specific tasks it is meant for, e.g., skinning, slicing, especially usuzukuri, than a kiritsuke.

That's not what he was saying. If you'll notice, some sushi guys do all tasks including veggie prep with just a yanagiba sometimes. He is suggesting that a kiritsuke may be a better choice for doing all purpose work in the same regard, not that it is a better fish slicer than a yanagiba. At least that's my understanding of his statement. To which I can see some merit in that. Haven't tested it myself, but I can see his point.

 

[GlassEye]

Zknves has a good list of the types, not much depth on useage though. Searching for videos in Japanese can often find decent examples of usage. The reason for how a style developed is harder to find, Jon probably has the answer (like always).

 

[GlassEye]

That's not what he was saying. If you'll notice, some sushi guys do all tasks including veggie prep with just a yanagiba sometimes. He is suggesting that a kiritsuke may be a better choice for doing all purpose work in the same regard, not that it is a better fish slicer than a yanagiba. At least that's my understanding of his statement. To which I can see some merit in that. Haven't tested it myself, but I can see his point.

This came up while I was typing my other comment. Theory has it right. I am also not wanting to say any knife style is definitively better than any other.