To be honest, Kato knife's Kanji is like wrriten by a 5 year old kid.

[zetieum]

@Soccerman: thanks a lot for this information: it is something I never though of. I am not Asian, so I am not able to judge the quality of the writing of a Kanji. I think your point makes perfectly sense and I will take a more closer look on the quality of the Kanji in the future. Although, I am not sure I will be able to distinguish the differences. As it has been already mentioned, a knife is not only the performance, etc. To my eye knowing that a Kanji is well made gives a knife an extra value even if I am not expert enough to appreciate it fully.

 

[Soccerman]

月心 is gorgeous. The technique in engraving is top notch. It feels so smooth and like done in a single motion. 像流水一樣。not sure if you get what I mean

I totally get it, IMO, that's the purpose of hand engraving, it has plus point for a knife, not a minus point

 

[Soccerman]

@Soccerman: thanks a lot for this information: it is something I never though of. I am not Asian, so I am not able to judge the quality of the writing of a Kanji. I think your point makes perfectly sense and I will take a more closer look on the quality of the Kanji in the future. Although, I am not sure I will be able to distinguish the differences. As it has been already mentioned, a knife is not only the performance, etc. To my eye knowing that a Kanji is well made gives a knife an extra value even if I am not expert enough to appreciate it fully.

Thank you for you kind reply Zetieum, you're a open minded person, if you need help identify the quality of the hand-engraving kanjis, I'm sure many people can help on this forum

 

[malexthekid]

Not upset about anything, just objective information from people who use the characters or Kanjis.

Your objective information is the opinion of 734 (ok 736 if we include the couple of people from here that agreed with you)... For starters, I would hope that someone with an enigneering understood objective vs subjective... aka opinion by its nature is subjective, even a consensus of opinion is still subjective, it may be adopted, but it is still subjective.... Next point, as for you comments about most (or was it all) Chinese knife collectors... Are you saying that out of the population of China, 734 people represent the entire collective of knife collectors in China, let alone a consensus of the entire population as you are claiming.

I couldn't give two hoots about the quality of the Kanji on his knives, because I am buying not on the kanji, but on the knife... Probably just like you couldn't give two hoots about my opinion on the rudimentary lettering on your revered bowie.

And and PS, just because your language is PG doesn't mean your mouth and content isn't as potty mouthed as the people you are calling out.

 

[Kristoff]

I totally get it, IMO, that's the purpose of hand engraving, it has plus point for a knife, not a minus point

I agree with you 100%. on a side note, the kanjis on the gesshin kagekiyo and ittetsu are done by professional engravers hence such high quality.

 

[Devon_Steven]

just because your language is PG doesn't mean your mouth and content isn't as potty mouthed as the people you are calling out.

Well indeed, the OP's decorum (and reasoned argument) levels slipped rather drastically in the hours following my earlier posts!

:scratchhead:

 

[Devon_Steven]

well I'm not a noble guy, I'm just a normal guy, I fight back when people do personal attack.

You should try to respond with more dignity than those who were rude to you, however.

Regarding reasoned argument, if your concern is for the aesthetics of the kanji, why do you write that "...it will be humiliating to show off a kato knife to a real knife collector"?

Unless 'real' knife collectors attach no value to kitchen knives, then this is a rather vacuous statement.

Also, I don't think that comparisons between your Kyle Royer Bowie knife and the essentially utilitarian Kato gyuto hold much substance.





Otherwise, Google Translate says that 井底之蛙 = 'frog'; and for that insult, I commend you

[of course, calling someone a frog in Asian culture might be far worse than doing it in Western culture]

[unless it's directed at a French person, of course, then it's pretty bad!]

 

[DamageInc]

Ladies and gentlemen, the stats are in.

After extensive research testing thousands of samples through random selection, it has been concluded that Mr. Kiyoshi Kato's kanji is written in the manner of a human child in the age range of between 4 and 6 years.

Due to this magnitudinous revelation within the scientific community, a committee has been assembled in order to find a solution and what the next actions taken should be. Some say to dispose of the knives at the nearest steel recycling center, while other more modest proposals include simple electrical tape over the Kanji area. But even the simplest solutions can present followup issues. One ethical conundrum has arisen from the fact that some of Mr. Kiyoshi Kato's knives have kanji on both sides of the blade, meaning that owners of these specimens need to use a considerable amount of tape greater than those with mono-sided kanji. Others say that the solution itself would be ineffective, as the kanji indentations are quite deep, meaning that a silhouette could still remain visible if tried in practice.

The committee has stated that they will release an official statement sometime in Q4 2018.

 

[Soccerman]

You should try to respond with more dignity than those who were rude to you, however.

Regarding reasoned argument, if your concern is for the aesthetics of the kanji, why do you write that "...it will be humiliating to show off a kato knife to a real knife collector"?

Unless 'real' knife collectors attach no value to kitchen knives, then this is a rather vacuous statement.

Also, I don't think that comparisons between your Kyle Royer Bowie knife and the essentially utilitarian Kato gyuto hold much substance.





Otherwise, Google Translate says that 井底之蛙 = 'frog'; and for that insult, I commend you

[of course, calling someone a frog in Asian culture might be far worse than doing it in Western culture]

[unless it's directed at a French person, of course, then it's pretty bad!]

I totally accept what you're saying
BTW, if you open wikipedia, you can see the definition of 井底之蛙 ： a person of very limited outlook and experience . That's the meaning of this word in China We don't specifically just imply someone is a frog ...

 

[Badgertooth]

Have I missed a trick? Japan and China have a similar script but different enough cultures for the possibility to exist that a sino-centric forum might be looking at it from a Chinese aesthetic which is differently nuanced to the Japanese aesthetic. Perhaps with the interceding few centuries since the script was introduced to a completely different culture it's style and how it is received in Japan might have changed to how it's appreciated in China.

"Another way to tell if a calligraphy is Japanese or Chinese is by analyzing the complexity of the characters. The Japanese have opted to simplify a lot of Kanji characters over the years. If a character looks really complex, it is most definite the Chinese version, since, again, the Japanese prefer a simpler version. These variations can be subtle in most cases by simplifying the amount of strokes in the characters while maintaining the essence and overall look. In other cases, the characters may change quite drastically."

So it may well be that it looks overly reduced or childlike to you and your forum and that's what you were trying to say. I wonder if 700 Japanese people would share that sentiment? What's become clear is that a significant enough sample from this forum who can't tell the difference and bought our Katos for reasons of function and form it's just a cool, authentic-looking adornment or branding that isn't going to diminish from our appreciation of these knives or Kato san's effort and direction of his skill in making an edged tool.

 

[Devon_Steven]

Interesting.

This is what I got from wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapodoton):

Anapodoton
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An anapodoton (from the Greek anapodosis: "without a main clause") is a rhetorical device related to the anacoluthon.[how?] It is a figure of speech or discourse that is an incomplete sentence, consisting of a subject or complement without the requisite object. The stand-alone subordinate clause suggests or implies a subject (a main clause), but this is not actually provided.[1]

As an intentional rhetorical device, it is generally used for set phrases, where the full form is understood, and would thus be tedious to spell out, as in "When in Rome [do as the Romans]." or "If the mountain won't come to Muhammad [Muhammed will go to the mountain]."

Anapodoton is extremely common in Classical Chinese and languages that draw from it, such as Japanese, where a long literary phrase is abbreviated to just a sufficient allusion. For example, Zhuangzi's phrase 井鼃不可以語於海者拘於虛也 "A frog in a well cannot conceive of the ocean." meaning "people of limited experience have a narrow world view" is rendered as 井底之蛙 "A frog in a well" in Modern Chinese, and as I no naka no kawazu (井の中の蛙?, A frog in a well) in Modern Japanese, abbreviating I no naka no kawazu taikai o shirazu (井の中の蛙大海を知らず?, A frog in a well does not know the great ocean.)

 

[Sharpchef]

Intressting discussion ......

maybe the left kanji was written by the older brother (maybe 8 years old ).

Greets Sebastian.

 

[XooMG]

Perhaps when I get off work, I'll delve into this in a way that is more palatable and can be appreciated without needing to engage in trench warfare. There has been a lot of needless hostility, and a lot of it seems avoidable.

 

[bennyprofane]

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise, they're almost impossible to get as it is.

 

[Devon_Steven]

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise, they're almost impossible to get as it is.

There's now going to be market for blank EYOK Katos.










Engrave Your Own Kanji

 

[panda]

Lmao @ devon's signature.

 

[Bill13]

Well besides some of the comments that got personal I found this thread to be enlightening. I had never thought of this before. I see what the OP is trying to state and it reminded me of some of Dave's early knives where he was having a hard time getting the etching right on his blades. It did not affect the cutting performance but personally I waited until he had it down.
Apple is great at this. They spend an enormous amount of time designing elegant packaging for their products. Does your iPhone work better because it came in this beautiful box, of course not. They realize that they are selling not just a phone but an entire experience. Now I see that that can include the care you take while putting your kanji on your knife.

Of course, a lack of care (or skill) on the kanji might also just be that he is a rebel, and does not care what most Asians would think about his knives or kanji, afterall it does not change how well it cuts..

What I would like to know is what makes his kanji sloppy or poorly done?

 

[PieMan]

I backfill every Kato I have with metal filler and have them engraved using only proper 1800's latin script.

 

[CB1968]

what a thread!!, we as a community are obviously running out of useful topics to discuss, maybe we should start a worst Kanji thread, or possibly a best Kanji thread, i think I understand Soccermans point however I am not Asian and honestly have never thought about the Kanji on my knives in this way, I also appreciate his point of view and opinion.
Personally I am far more interested in grind, edge retention, F&F and sharpenabilty than I am in the specifics of the Kanji.
But that's just me and each to their own.

 

[Devon_Steven]

What I would like to know is what makes his kanji sloppy or poorly done?

I'm not so sure that it's sloppy or poorly done... the five-year-old thing seems to be a bit of hyperbole on the part of the OP. I think the point is that it stylistically rather simplified / basic / unadorned in comparison with some other knives.



Like this rather than this


(unfortunately, KKF doesn't support any fancier fonts than the 'than this' part of my post)

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Also, the properly raised are neither disgusted easily by language, nor by what the censored word means.


...


Also, while it might be ugly or not viewed through the lens of someone knowing that writing culture, to us westerners it just looks quite stylish... and it is not inauthentic either (if anything, we'd be viewing it through inauthentic eyes lol... and trying to rectify that would actually make us inauthentic ).


...

If a maker used that slightly-psyched-kid script for his makers mark ... hey if the blade is good, i'd find it literally stylish A knife for these "a mortar full of herbs and spices is one way to make spite and resentment taste delicious" days....


...

Wonder how asians view the Takeda heart, by the way (that is something that is subtly goofy to europeans at least... but not in a bad way, more like "hey he is so serious about his craft that even his goofy aspects are enlisted into it")?

 

[Devon_Steven]

Also, the properly raised are neither disgusted easily by language, nor by what the censored word means.

Well, I'm not disgusted by the word, but I'd never call you, or anyone else on a public forum, by such a name.

Here in the UK that word is amongst the highest ranking (maybe even the highest ranking) of taboo words there are. I think that goes for the US too.

Wonder how asians view the Takeda heart, by the way (that is something that is subtly goofy to europeans at least... but not in a bad way, more like "hey he is so serious about his craft that even his goofy aspects are enlisted into it")?

Good point!

 

[rami_m]

Perhaps when I get off work, I'll delve into this in a way that is more palatable and can be appreciated without needing to engage in trench warfare. There has been a lot of needless hostility, and a lot of it seems avoidable.

Please do. I look forward to it and I completely agree.

We are all supposed to be a friendly bunch. While the OP initial language was a bit strong, I would have given him the benefit of doubt. I don't really agree with him but sheesh he didn't really deserve any of this.

 

[TurboScooter]

The amount of Japanese that do shodou at a decently high level isn't super common, at least as far as I know from my own experiences.

Even if one does shodou, I wouldn't necessarily think the ability to write with a brush and ink would translate to engraving in steel with a chisel and hammer.

If we're going to complain about ugly writing on knives, I think the roman character fonts used by Asian companies tends to be ugly. For example, the ZDP-189 stamp used by Sukenari and the font the Taichung, Taiwan factory that Spyderco uses. I'm not a fan of a ton of stuff all over my knives period, but for me performance is more important than looks, and me complaining about ugly fonts on the internet probably will result in exactly nothing, so to me it's whatever. I mean, yeah I can wish they'd go with a more stylish font, but wish in one hand... If it's that important to you, spend your money elsewhere.

 

[Bill13]

what a thread!!, we as a community are obviously running out of useful topics to discuss, maybe we should start a worst Kanji thread, or possibly a best Kanji thread, i think I understand Soccermans point however I am not Asian and honestly have never thought about the Kanji on my knives in this way, I also appreciate his point of view and opinion.
Personally I am far more interested in grind, edge retention, F&F and sharpenabilty than I am in the specifics of the Kanji.
But that's just me and each to their own.

I think the larger point trying to be made is that in Asian cultures the care you take in "applying" your kanji is reflective of the care you took in making the knife, they are not separable (is that a word?).

 

[daveb]

Back the truck up.

In my view the OP's premise is interesting but predictably polarizing. Nothing wrong with that, I kind of like it. But a better understanding of cause and effect is in order.

Personal attacks on others based on their opinions is not acceptable here, by either side of the discussion, regardless of your opinion and how absolutely right it is.

I did a quick clean up on aisle 9. Some will think something should not have been edited, some will find things they think should have been edited.

Deal with it.

Hugs.

 

[alterwisser]

To a passive observer this is one of the best threads ever. Highly amusing and disturbing at the same time.

On another note: what is a Kato?

 

[daveb]

I think he worked for the Green Hornet. Like Batman's Robin.

 

[brainsausage]

Not valid point, here we are talking about Asian culture 書道 or 書法, based on this, Kato's kanji is ugly.

I don't judge Picasso, if I really wanna say something about Picasso, I would learn some knowledge about Western painting first.

There are no valid points when discussing aesthetics. Purely subjective, and opinion based.

 

[Iggy]

There are no valid points when discussing aesthetics. Purely subjective, and opinion based.

Totally agree with that lus1:

Edit: I personally have nothing against the Kanji on my Katos. What really annoys me are stamped etched or lasered Kanjis (Masamoto, Konosuke, Suisin, Sukenari) on knives that really deserves better.
Most beautiful Kanji IMHO so far on my knives is on my Gesshin Ittetsu Honyaki Sujihiki.