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You know, the other day, my coworker and I were telling the boss that we were having trouble with the burning roofing tar the crew reroofing the building had going. They burned it in a giant bbq pit outside our door. My coworker said the smell was bothering him and I said it was giving me headaches. My boss rolled her eyes and said "yeah, but everything gives you a headache". She's referring to my low tolerance for inhaling degreaser spray, putting my head in an oven with oven cleaner in it, and tolerating working after the floor gets mopped with a few cups of pine sol and a few cups of bleach. Regular behavior where I work.

My coworker said, "yeah he does but it's starting to hurt my head too", and she said she understood to him. I said "just because I often get headaches doesn't mean I don't have one." Her response? "Yeah, but it doesn't make you special when you do."


It's often surprising how quickly an ethical code gets trashed in favor of accepting the status quo. Yes, many other companies do this stuff--that is exactly the problem. It has become accepted from the outset that everyone accepting your money is going to lie, cheat, extort and manipulate to get it.

Research? It took me years to know what I know now, and a few more to find out it was common knowledge 100 years ago.
 
So you hate on them for marketing? Really?

German knives are definitely average knives. Yes, there is a whole world of better knives out there, but compared to what is in the average home cook's hands pretty much any forged blade is an improvement. A wusthof/Henckel can take a decent, but not good edge, it's very durable compared to most other knives, including a lot of the higher-end cutters we all know and love. They also come with lifetime warranties, which are attractive to people who don't want to take care of their own knives. Sure, their profiles aren't the best ever, but that big belly and the thickness you list as reasons why they aren't average are attractive to most people who just hack at stuff and rock cut everything. The average person doesn't push-cut much, so the average knife doesn't need to be suited for it. Sharp spine? Really? You think that's a realistic benchmark for an average blade?
 
No, I hate on them for UNETHICAL marketing. It is not considered ethically satisfactory marketing to distribute false information about a subject that exists solely to promote your product within that subject. You aren't supposed to just lie to people. I mean really? A full tang? A perfect angle?

Also, yeah, easing, or at least beveling, a spine is totally something every knife should have done. It's like a 5 second task.

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. But one of the few things I enjoy analyzing that involves other people is ethical systems. And bloated global corporations very rarely satisfy a modicum of consistency within any ethical system, other than "more money = good, to the exclusion of all else". If the same standards were applied to individuals, we'd get robbed and should feel envious of the guy who robbed us. The man in town who dams up the water supply and sells it for so much money the town lives in squalor would instead get awards and sell books about "how you can do it too!". The guy who sells you a product that doesn't exist or is a lemon would be heralded as a great entrepreneur. Honestly, I don't understand how everyone is cool with how they do business. I suppose it's like WalMart or Apple--people see it enough, they accept it. I don't.
 
BurkeCutlery said:
You know, the other day, my coworker and I were telling the boss that we were having trouble with the burning roofing tar the crew reroofing the building had going. They burned it in a giant bbq pit outside our door.
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Well no wonder they were burning it -- it is supposed to be melted in a * kettle *, not a bbq pit! Gotta be careful with that, as the flash points of coal tar pitch and asphalt bitumens aren't that much higher then the optimum kettle temperatures, and it's easy to get a flash fire. And if they kept the bitumen at too high a temperature for too long, it could have impacted the softening point and the long-term performance of the new built-up roofing membrane.

Anywho, pics or it didn't happen! I love me some good roof replacement photos!

Dang, I knew one day my knife and work worlds would collide...



p.s. I consider the smell "the smell of progress"!
 
I didn't get a picture of it. I got a pic of the big trailer thingy that looks like a giant pit that does the bulk of it, but up on the roof, they actually had a barrel smoker going. I doubt it was lunch.
 
Kettle was on the ground, and likely just a lugger on the roof. Smoke would have come out of the lugger when it was being filled, or when draining into the mop carts, but it would not have had a heater/ flame.
 
I'm with Eamon on the frustration of people believing that the best knife has all the attributes that they have been told by years of marketing, rather than any actual knowledge. Articles like these are infuriating as they have rarely been written by anyone who actually knows the subject well. The whole samurai sword story used in 'japanese' knife marketing also drives me nuts though.
 
At one time people probably cared more/ paid more attention. But with mass production things like kitchen knives became a commodity. So Wusthof, etc. put their spin on things to spotlight their products vs those of others. Compared to the limited number of mass-produced USA kitchen knives, are Wusthofs any worse?

As with many other types of products, there's a bit of a renaissance and people are now looking closer at things they used to take for granted. Shoot, I knew nothing about Japanese knifes until a few years ago. I can't say that was the fault of Wusthof, as none of the stores with kitchen stuff carried products from Japanese makers around here. It had nothing to do with Wusthof marketing, except maybe Wusthof products seemed better then the other options the stores were presented with by their distributors. So why weren't Japanese knives more popular in the US? Maybe no one really tried to market them here until recently?

And it's great that we have some makers coming to the forefront, and producing nice kitchen knives, although at the typical price points they cost 4-5 times what a Wusthof costs.
 
WildBoar said:
Well no wonder they were burning it -- it is supposed to be melted in a * kettle *, not a bbq pit! Gotta be careful with that, as the flash points of coal tar pitch and asphalt bitumens aren't that much higher then the optimum kettle temperatures, and it's easy to get a flash fire. And if they kept the bitumen at too high a temperature for too long, it could have impacted the softening point and the long-term performance of the new built-up roofing membrane.

Anywho, pics or it didn't happen! I love me some good roof replacement photos!

Dang, I knew one day my knife and work worlds would collide...



p.s. I consider the smell "the smell of progress"!
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:plus1:
 
Yeah, plus the idea of ranking knives based on cutting a tomato and some basil seems nutty. You can sharpen them differently and get totally different results.
 
Guys, we can disagree but we shouldn't insult each other. Let's keep the personal insults to ourselves or if you feel a need to share there's always the PM system where you can talk (or insult) privately.

I'm going to remove the insults and all related discussion from this thread.
 
Every time one of these articles, gets posted, the usual comments get made about the authors lack of knowledge. The question I always have is what would the forum recommend to people who are not knife enthusiasts? The answer to date has been silence. Probably because in the end, we would recommend Wustoff or Henkels. Are they the best knives out there? Based on cutting performance, hardly. But for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes.

I don't understand the criticism that all companies want to do is make money. Every business that I am aware of, needs to make money to stay open.

To say that Wustoff or Henkels are lying about their products, is wrong. Lying means that Wustoff or Henkels knows that there claims about there products are wrong, but continue to make them.

Branding is a good sales tool. Take McDonald's for instance, do they have for the best hamburgers. I'm sure we would have to search high and low to find somebody willing to admit that McDonald's was their favorite place to get a burger. So why is McDonalds so popular? They have made a reputation or brand for being a clean well lit restaurant with reasonable prices. When your on a trip, and there is a McDonald's on one side of the street and on the other side is Bob's Burger World. Bob's may be the best burger joint in the state, or it just failed its last health inspection, because of rats running freely through the kitchen. Which restaurant are you going to choose, a sure thing or take a risk on an unknown restaurant?

Wustoff and Henkels are the known brand names in the knife world. People who shop for knives know the name and trust them.

Jay
 
I just love this articles. Well I know Im not being fair to the makers here, but price is a result of demand and supply.
What would happen when custom high end makers was ranked as nr one in all tests. What would happen if everyone found out the best makers in the world was Bill and Devin. Just imagine what would happen if Carter and Marko was discovered by the masses.

I couldn't afford more than one knife of them, and the line was like 6 years waiting. However I want the custom makers of my knives to make money, I have never ever argued about price with one of them. I have also every time payed up front, even years in advance. But still, wait with the media till Im done buying high end knives :) Just 2 more of devin and Im done :)
 
I feel like I am belaboring to no avail on the corporate responsibility thing, so I'll not :yap:. Maybe I'll elucidate at some point in the future. I am not in disagreement with most of the things said in response to my posts, so I think I'm being misapprehended.

jaybett said:
Every time one of these articles, gets posted, the usual comments get made about the authors lack of knowledge. The question I always have is what would the forum recommend to people who are not knife enthusiasts? The answer to date has been silence. Probably because in the end, we would recommend Wustoff or Henkels. Are they the best knives out there? Based on cutting performance, hardly. But for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes.
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That is a great question! For whatever reason, we don't get nearly the volume of newbie posts here that I would expect, or that we saw years ago on other forums. It used to be a twice daily thing some guy/gal shows up and says "I have this tiny pigeon budget, I am scared of sharp things, what's the best knife?". As a result, there were "flavor of the month" beaters that got suggested to people, Tojiro, Fujiwara, Forschner, etc.

But the thing is, a 10" Wusthof Classic Chef's is still $145! That's not cheap, if you ask me. If you are going to spend ~$130 on one knife, the 240mm Suisin Inox Western knocks the Wusthof out of the park. It out performs and out classes that Wusthof so bad it's laughable.
 
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Mingooch said:
EdipisReks said:
that Cat Cora knife looks god awful.[/QUOTE

But I always thought she was pretty dam cute. :)
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She is cute, likes the ladies, but she is also 4'11''. And that is Hollywood height, so I am sure she is more around 4'9-10".

Btw, my favorite quote from the article regarding the Morimoto: "You may need to buy this knife as a supplement to a cutlery set, however; with its fine edge, it's not the right knife for cutting hard foods like carrots or chicken bones. If you're a fan of Iron Chef, you'll love this excellent celebrity kitchen knife."

Damn, I need to buy a set first?? And I didn't know my TV-viewing habits should also influence my knife choice. Oh well...I am going to go cook up some chicken bone food now.

k.
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jaybett said:
...for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes...
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I have to agree with Eamon on this one. If you want something tough and stain resistant that can take and hold a reasonable edge, Henckels and Wusthof are way overpriced. Forschner and Mercer, for example, make much better choices and don't get much mainstream pub.
 
tk59 said:
I have to agree with Eamon on this one. If you want something tough and stain resistant that can take and hold a reasonable edge, Henckels and Wusthof are way overpriced. Forschner and Mercer, for example, make much better choices and don't get much mainstream pub.
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There is a magazine that constantly touts the benefits of Forschner knives. A recommendation from them, is sure to guarantee an increase in sales. They helped start the mania for Kramer knives with a little side box, that stated a Kramer knife was the sharpest, they had seen in the test kitchen. The magazine? Cooks Illustrated.

It's an easy comment to make, that a knife is over valued. This kind of comment gets peoples attention, because no one wants to over pay. The question then becomes, what is a better knife for the same money? A lot of times an alternative isn't offered. When an alternative is offered, is it really any better then the original suggestion?

Arguing about value is problematic. What one person values, may be of no value to another person. Is a Suisin Inox a better performing knife then a Wustoff? Absolutely. Is the Suisin, a good choice, for a household that has no interest in learning how to sharpen or oiling a handle? No. Is a Wustoff overpriced? Most magazines will rate any knife that is over a hundred dollars as expensive. Is it better to buy a knife that cuts as well as Wustoff, but costs less money? The obvious answer is yes, but applying this logic to more expensive knives, does it make sense to buy a Heji, when a Konosuke cuts just as well?

What I find interesting is that over the last ten years, we have seen Global and Shun, brought to the market as an alternative to Henkels and Wustoff. Sur la Table, and William Sonoma are offering knives in the $300 range. In response to the competition Henkels has opened a factory in Japan. Wustoff has developed a new line. Plus a lot of new lines have been introduced. With all the choices where will the market go?

Jay
 
jaybett said:
There is a magazine that constantly touts the benefits of Forschner knives. A recommendation from them, is sure to guarantee an increase in sales. They helped start the mania for Kramer knives with a little side box, that stated a Kramer knife was the sharpest, they had seen in the test kitchen. The magazine? Cooks Illustrated.

It's an easy comment to make, that a knife is over valued. This kind of comment gets peoples attention, because no one wants to over pay. The question then becomes, what is a better knife for the same money? A lot of times an alternative isn't offered. When an alternative is offered, is it really any better then the original suggestion?...
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Yes. I do remember the Cooks Illustrated effect, now that you mention it. As for value, I mentioned Mercer because they make a line that has essentially the same quality in terms of grind and materials and fit and finish and nearly the same design as a Henckel/Wusthof but is a fraction of the cost mainly because their factory is in Taiwan, I think.
 
Any time I think about the knife industry I compare it to the restaurant industry. On one hand you have Mickey D's and cheap food and prices. On the other hand you have a 10$ burger from just about any other sit down joint.

Many times I will explain to someone, that I know that can't and won't afford eating at were I work, how much a burger will cost. It always comes down to "that is to expensive for a burger." I then go on to explain the differences between the 2.

Does the corporate (mcdonalds) go out and explain the difference? No. They are making money on their brand. Is it the best burger they can give? No. Is it their responsibility to educate the public why they have cheap food? No. It used to be hard to explain the differences and you could get into shouting matches over it. It has been many people getting educated about food that has made it easier. It was not through cook books, home cooks (god knows how many times I have eaten bad home cooking). I think food network has helped in many ways in this regard.

It won't be until there is a main focus on why knives are better for certain things than others. I see the knife industry at about were the food industry was in the 70's or 80's.

I hope this helps, and not confuses.
 
When I studied economics, the point was made there is always a place for inferior products in an economy. You can't just have the best and most expensive products. Cheaper lesser quality products always have a place.

With that said, I think the part that pisses us knife knuts off is the miseducation that surrounds these inferior products. Instead of selling Wusthof knives as medium quality, semi-affordable blades for people who don't have time or know how to sharpen or who can't ensure proper care, they bill them as high quality, best-in-market knives with misleading terminology such as 'forged' 'full tang' etc to make people think they are the best.

The manufacturers of medium quality TVs, cars, cookware etc don't really try to say their product is the best -- just better valued.

k.
 
happens all the time in the restaurant industry all the time too.
 
mr drinky said:
When I studied economics, the point was made there is always a place for inferior products in an economy. You can't just have the best and most expensive products. Cheaper lesser quality products always have a place.

With that said, I think the part that pisses us knife knuts off is the miseducation that surrounds these inferior products. Instead of selling Wusthof knives as medium quality, semi-affordable blades for people who don't have time or know how to sharpen or who can't ensure proper care, they bill them as high quality, best-in-market knives with misleading terminology such as 'forged' 'full tang' etc to make people think they are the best.

The manufacturers of medium quality TVs, cars, cookware etc don't really try to say their product is the best -- just better valued.

k.
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Exactly.
 
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