Understanding Distal Taper

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Eloh said:
@labor of love
Why don't you just explain the terminology in detail instead of just "throwing it around" yourself.
The takamura blazen I had was definitely what I personally would refer to as a laser. With a little more distal taper at the spine compared to a typical sakai laser, but from cutting experience it's def laserlike, wich was exactly his point: the distal taper at the spine is not that important when there is no distal taper in the middle and bottom of the blade.

Also your link is a ryusen not a takamura
Click to expand...
He most certainly didn’t say Takamura Blazen in the post I’m responding too. I can’t read his mind.
 
I wrote Takamura sevreral times, and for a one with good knowlege about knifes the mark on the balde in my pic will show thats an Takamura also ;)

Regards

Uwe
 
Last edited:
Maybe work a little harder on the words you use so people can actually understand what you’re saying ;)

citing one of many older blazen knives that are no longer in production and acting as if it’s understood is just ridiculous ;)

at a glance takamura and blazen look quite similar
 
I think the laser comment was just an aside and nit-picking it doesn't add to the discussion about distal taper.

Lets go back to diagram of the Blazen:

The one question I had is "why" do they grind it like that?
Is it easier to OEM or is there some reason (robustness?)?

I wonder if the knife would bend/break or something if not
thicker up front than witha "proper" (proportionate) distal taper?
 
Maybe try to answer dircet questions....

Have you ever cut with an Takamura Blazen or not :D

Tough that will not change what they are, lasers with no distal taper above the egde ;)

But very good knifes also for my taste, just not perfect, as my english writing :)

Regards

Uwe
 
HRC_64 said:
I think the laser comment was just an aside and nit-picking it doesn't add to the discussion about distal taper.

Lets go back to diagram of the Blazen:

The one question I had is "why" do they grind it like that?
Is it easier to OEM or is there some reason (robustness?)?

I wonder if the knife would bend/break or something if not
thicker up front than witha "proper" (proportionate) distal taper?
Click to expand...

Yes it is easy to grind, making a distal taper above the edge is some what complicated.

a thinner tip is also more fragile, but with an bit wider bevel to the tip also strudy enough for pro use.

Regards

Uwe
 
labor of love said:
He most certainly didn’t say Takamura Blazen in the post I’m responding too. I can’t read his mind.
Click to expand...

The thing is it's Completely irrelevant to the point he was trying to make about different kinds of distal tapers since he offered a picture with discrete data points to make his point pretty clear, wich you ignored.

Its all good though. We should all try harder to not misunderstand each other., especially when we have a whole lot of people here who don't have English as their first language.
 
Eloh said:
The thing is it's Completely irrelevant to the point he was trying to make about different kinds of distal tapers since he offered a picture with discrete data points to make his point pretty clear, wich you ignored.

Its all good though. We should all try harder to not misunderstand each other., especially when we have a whole lot of people here who don't have English as their first language.
Click to expand...
I also agree, Suntravel should use illustrations and photos in the future as his words fail him.
 
Guys, can we pls return to the distal taper rather then blaming and shouting on others?

I just came across this topic and must admit I like it.
 
There is no excuse to use a misunderstanding as a reason to attack anyone, nor is it particularly nice to belittle others because of their less-then-perfect language skills. There are plenty non native English speakers around here - should they all be afraid to share their opinion or join discussion because someone might put them down?

Back on topic. I like distal taper (I mean a gyuto here) where the neck is nice and thick, then it gets progressively thinner to around where the heel is, followed bz a gentle taper over the most of the length of the blade and then gets again more pronounced last few centimetres towards the tip. Roughly speaking. I expect a taper to the grind from the heel towards the tip, but I have not used any gyuto worth picking up that would not have one.
 
HRC_64 said:
Lets go back to diagram of the Blazen:

The one question I had is "why" do they grind it like that?
Is it easier to OEM or is there some reason (robustness?)?

I wonder if the knife would bend/break or something if not
thicker up front than witha "proper" (proportionate) distal taper?
Click to expand...
I explained why they grind it like that at the end of my first post.

Don't forget, you are comparing the consistent grind angle of the Blazen to knives that have a changing primary bevel angle. The tip of the Blazen is no thicker than any other part of the knife.
The hypothetical reverse of your question would be, "Why does the bevel angle of the bottom knife deviate so much?"
37021083yg.jpg
 
Kippington said:
Don't forget, you are comparing the consistent grind angle of the Blazen to knives that have a changing primary bevel angle. The tip of the Blazen is no thicker than any other part of the knife.
Click to expand...

Kip thanks for confirming the Blazen's "consistent grind angle" as per the photo (talking choil-shot type cross sections).
But the question remains WHY is this an objective of the maker?

EG, one option would be to have more of a convex ("U") shape at the back and "V" shape at the front...
ie, the spine still the same or pretty close since U and V are about the same across the top.

I suppose one explanation is "blazen has a mediocre grind" because of cost savings and a desire to be durable.
Both of those are potentially useful in a Pro Environment since aforability and durability both are relevant.

But it may also be underwhelming from a character or performance perspective.

Variable cross section geometry at first glance require more skill to execute (and be more costly),
and would lead to a weaker tip, but perhaps may give a more intersting performance for some users?

It also seems, mathematically, variable grind geometry woud also induce distal taper into the knive at lower reference planes than the visible/optical taper.

This also illustrates a discussion of grinds vs tapers done in isolation is tricky.
 
Kippington said:
"Why does the bevel angle of the bottom knife deviate so much?"
Click to expand...

Simply because it ist made to have a distal taper above the edge :)

Also there is no simple bevel angle, its complete convexed.

Regards

Uwe
 
Last edited:
suntravel said:
Simply because it ist made to have a distal taper above the edge :)
Click to expand...
You are going in circles because you're treating the same thing as two different entities. You cant use one to explain the other.

- The grind is that way because it's made to have a distal taper above the edge...
- The distal taper is that way because the grind was made to be thinner at the tip...
- The grind is that way because it's made to have a distal taper above the edge... etc
Kippington said:
Here's the thing, both of the following statements are true and sum up the same property:
  • The difference between them is in distal taper below the spine: The top knife has more internal distal taper
  • The difference between them is in the grind: The top knife has a more acute grind towards the tip
So if both statements represent the same thing, the question is: Which description would you prefer to use?
Click to expand...
 
HRC_64 said:
But it may also be underwhelming from a character or performance perspective.
Click to expand...
Well that's the thing. Why would it be underwhelming?
Lets look at the two knives side by side again. The top one has measurements of 1.40mm and 1.00mm consistently across the knife.
The bottom one has a changing grind. Lets say the same measurements (1.40mm and 1.00mm) occur at a certain spot on the blade, three quarters of the way down to the tip. Would that spot on the bottom knife also be underwhelming?

Ignoring cost and manufacturing, I think there are advantages and disadvantages to the performance to both of them, and I would not say the Blazen has a "mediocre grind" in comparison.
 
Kippington said:
I think there are advantages and disadvantages to the performance to both of them....
Click to expand...

What are the advantages/disadvantages
eg of having a no-taper, no variation grind?

this is I guess the general question posed earlier

if one assumes its not inferior, what are the places
and jobs/tasks where it excels?

There's nothing wrong with predictable, cost effective tool,
of course.
 
HRC_64 said:
What are the advantages/disadvantages
eg of having a no-taper, no variation grind?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, are you including spinal taper to this?
No variation grinds have a more consistent feel and are less likely to wedge during push cuts.

______________________

Alright, time to add to the confusion with one of the bonus parts.

Distal Taper and it's effect on an Asymmetrical grind

As many of us already know, there can be advantages to grinding a knife off-centre.
64aEfUo.png

It's a simple enough concept, but what happens when we add distal taper to the mix?

The following triangles represent the spine of a tapered knife, with the middle line going through them representing the cutting edge.
8TmvUto.png

As we know, the cutting edge has to be straight. That's easy enough to do if it runs down the centre of the knife, (a) being an example of that.
Lets look at an asymmetric grind on the knife (b). To maintain a constant ratio of space on the left and right of the edge, we end up with the edge no longer running at the same angle as before.
To have the cutting edge of a tapered knife to run parallel to the handle, the tip of the knife needs to point slightly left or right (c), depending on which bias the knife was designed for.

This is one of the stranger things I've noticed while making tapered knives.
 
Last edited:
Kippington said:
I'm not sure, are you including spinal taper to this?
No variation grinds have a more consistent feel and are less likely to wedge during push cuts.
Click to expand...

Yes, this was the kind of answer I was thinking about. So tapered is sometimes good to use, but then there has to be times (as you mention) it is not ideal.
 
HRC_64 said:
Yes, this was the kind of answer I was thinking about. So tapered is sometimes good to use, but then there has to be times (as you mention) it is not ideal.
Click to expand...
Yep. That's not taking spinal taper into consideration either, which adds a new element to the mix (details at the end of the first post).
Also, if Uwe considers the Blazen to be a laser it should already be thin behind the edge at the heel. If we had the edge get even thinner towards the tip on a laser, it might easily be considered unnecessarily overkill depending on how it's done and who's using it.
DS4STTs.jpg

If a knife doesn't get thinner towards the tip, it doesn't mean the tip will be fatter behind the edge than it is at the heel.
 
Last edited:
Hi!

Oh that Takamura Balzen from Suntravel is actually a to big for my taste but its a good laser!
I have tried it often at our Knife gatherings. "oh Suntravel brought his blazen.. Time to destroy some carrots"
 
Maybe i dont understand your question right Kippington.

But is notice your explanations are all based on dead flat grinds in the sketches, but with some convex and/or hollow grinding it is easy to get different tapers above the edge without touching the taper of the spine ;)

Regards

Uwe
 
suntravel said:
...with some convex and/or hollow grinding it is easy to get different tapers above the edge without touching the taper of the spine
Click to expand...

This would be considered by many to be a flat grind, but it still shows different tapers above the edge without touching the taper of the spine:
MxIQUSW.png

I'm not sure what your point is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top