VMatter knives

[Larrin]

Yeah, I'm sure their moulds are accurate to a nanometer. That or "nanosharpness" is pure BS.

Now let me think....:whistling:

There's no way they're sharpening down to a 3nm edge as is shown on the indiegogo page.. They also have a micrograph of steel that doesn't look like steel. I don't know what they did to that poor steel.

 

[Justin0505]

This is interesting to say the least.
The secrecy and "proprietary scientific terms" (made-up meaningless mumbo-jumbo) really hurts their credibility. The "never dull" claim is also clearly BS. If a material can be ground / abraded then it can be dulled. Claiming exceptional or long-lasting edge retention would sound much more honest / realistic than saying that it' basically the same as unobtainium or whatever it is that Wolverine's claws are made from.
Also, blatantly knocking off a Zwlining design really makes them look like a bunch of clowns when they prattle on about revolutionary innovation. But then again, at least they didn't to go full-retar...errr... Onion on the design either...

The liquidmetal website does have some slightly more tangible / quantitative info, but nothing that transfers well to how it would perform in a kitchen knife.

My understanding of the goal of forging and HT'ing is to create a fine and even grain structure so that there is an even distribution of very hard carbides along the cutting edge. The carbides that do the cutting are much harder than the surrounding material. But according to the LM site, LM has NO grain structure as the alloying materials are mixed and randomly distributed on an atomic level. So what are the implications of that in terms of cutting performance and the type of edge that it's capable of taking holding? I can't imagine that the entire homogeneous LM mixture is as hard as the carbides in the currently cutlery steels.

The LM site also states that LM is a class of alloyS , implying that there may be different combinations of metals that go into the mix (the history channel spot says that LM is made of steel, aluminum, and titanium) but that the resulting alloy's properties are very different from any of the components.
[video=youtube_share;-uOPXquIMt4]http://youtu.be/-uOPXquIMt4[/video]


Also, they frequently refer to it as being more like a glass (frozen liquid) than a metal, what would this mean in terms of sharpening? Would it still for a bur? Sharpening glass or ceramic is a real PITA as you have to get the angles inhumanly perfect or use sandpaper over rubber-backing to micro-convex it.

However, if the stuff can actually take and hold a decent edge, then this does sound like it has potential. They may not be able to cast a small enough radius to make a finished edge, but how THIN they can cast it may be more important. Also, I wonder if there are any limitations to how complex the form can be? Could they replicate an "S" grind? Getting a production knife with good geometry and consistently thin and even behind the edge seems to be beyond the current limits of automation. The VMatter knives look as thick and clunky as the German hatchets that they copied, but what if they tried to copy a Shig or DT instead?

 

[Timthebeaver]

As I understand it, these alloys are predominantly zirconium.

 

[TB_London]

Yeah, I'm sure their moulds are accurate to a nanometer. That or "nanosharpness" is pure BS.

Now let me think....:whistling:

Interestingly enough amorphous metals are used for making nano moulds with accuracy down to around 10 nanometres in place of silicon due to being less fragile.

Not that I'm suggesting these BS knives do anything like that

 

[TB_London]

Edit to add ref
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009Natur.457..868K

 

[bkultra]

Claiming exceptional or long-lasting edge retention would sound much more honest / realistic than saying that it' basically the same as unobtainium or whatever it is that Wolverine's claws are made from.

Adamantium, just saying

 

[Timthebeaver]

Edit to add ref
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009Natur.457..868K

It's an interesting paper, thanks for that. Wonder if there has been much take-up of this tech?

However, it also suggests that moulding a blade with an edge anywhere near that level of precision is utter fantasy.

 

[Timthebeaver]

So, I suspect "Vmatter" is just a rebranding of Liquidmetal aka LM1 aka Vitreloy.

Here's Cliff Stamp's take on it:

LM1 : main

LM1 is an amorphous (no specific crystal structure) alloy of titanium, copper, nickel, zirconium and beryllium. It can be cast to a very precise shape.

Materials information from Caltech (html version)
This document shows a very low yield strength, 220 ksi, much lower than hardened cutlery steel, and a low hardness, about 50 HRC, and fairly brittle nature. The density is also much lower than steel, 6.3 g/cm^2 vs 7.8-8.1 g.cm^3.

Knives personally used in LM1 :

Model 10 from R. W. Clark : 50 HRC
The model 10 was used for a large variety of work with the edge retention examined on hemp, cardboard, carpet and woods. In all cases it was well behind cutlery steels, even low grade ones, with the edge retention on hemp being just a fraction of a Swiss Army knife (ref) and a regular Olfa knife readily outclassed it on cardboard (ref). The durability was also very low as it chipped out consistently during wood chopping and this was a very light blade

 

[bkultra]

It's been awhile since I herd Cliff Stamp be brought up, probably a good thing.

 

[Frater_Decus]

Maybe they mean "never needs HONING," not "never needs sharpening," as it has no teeth.

Toothless, indeed!

 

[Timthebeaver]

I hadn't come across him until Dave posted a video of a review of his recently, which was quite amusing.

 

[menzaremba]

I don't think I have any interest in the products being advertised.

I once made a video of myself cutting to get a look at how my knives were cutting from a different angle and how poor my technique was, and I was going to ask for advice; but I'm actually rather glad I didn't, since I was worried about being ridiculed. Perhaps the commentary is just a reaction to hype and terms like "executive chef" but it's a bit discouraging to a relative novice like me who cuts a bit "like a nervous 12 year old".

It certainly was, and I apologize if the comment made it any less likely that you would post your video in search of genuine feedback. I do think it's fair that we hold people that call themselves "professionals" to a higher standard. There are a ton of things wrong with the language and presentation here, but not having someone skilled highlighting the blade seems like a major oversight.

You'll get better. Keep cutting.

 

[hobbitling]

lots of good info here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.

looks like this is essentially a glass or ceramic like material, but made using metals. Not even close to being steel. No iron, no carbon. No defined crystal structure, so more like a glass than a ceramic. It appears to behave much like glass too. very brittle, unless they completely overcame that problem somehow.

Actually, a broken glass edge is the sharpest edge physically possible (but very fragile, of course). It tapers down to a few atoms thick if it's broken just right. They use broken glass knives to cut specimen slices for electron microscope imaging, so we're talking slices a few nanometers thick. If it can cut through a mitochondria, that's pretty damn sharp. But of course that edge won't last long at all.

 

[Larrin]

lots of good info here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.

looks like this is essentially a glass or ceramic like material, but made using metals. Not even close to being steel. No iron, no carbon. No defined crystal structure, so more like a glass than a ceramic. It appears to behave much like glass too. very brittle, unless they completely overcame that problem somehow.

Actually, a broken glass edge is the sharpest edge physically possible (but very fragile, of course). It tapers down to a few atoms thick if it's broken just right. They use broken glass knives to cut specimen slices for electron microscope imaging, so we're talking slices a few nanometers thick. If it can cut through a mitochondria, that's pretty damn sharp. But of course that edge won't last long at all.

My guess is that if the 3nm edge is real it's a fracture edge which would mean nothing as far as knives go. It's just more misleading marketing.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

lots of good info here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.

looks like this is essentially a glass or ceramic like material, but made using metals. Not even close to being steel. No iron, no carbon. No defined crystal structure, so more like a glass than a ceramic. It appears to behave much like glass too. very brittle, unless they completely overcame that problem somehow.

Actually, a broken glass edge is the sharpest edge physically possible (but very fragile, of course). It tapers down to a few atoms thick if it's broken just right. They use broken glass knives to cut specimen slices for electron microscope imaging, so we're talking slices a few nanometers thick. If it can cut through a mitochondria, that's pretty damn sharp. But of course that edge won't last long at all.

There are specialized materials for diff. cutting jobs that would not work in a kitchen knife at all.The profiles wt. the extreme upsweep tips.They should use some of that research on knife geometry.I've spent more time reading all the good links provided than the thread.If the Santoku was availible I might take a gamble,knowing full well that it might be a total waste of money.:O

 

[Flyingpigg]

It's been awhile since I herd Cliff Stamp be brought up, probably a good thing.

Why is it a good thing? I've only seen his videos from Martell's threads, and I found his tone to be rather humorous. I have no opinion about the information that he offers, but it sounds like he's offering bad information.

 

[bkultra]

Why is it a good thing? I've only seen his videos from Martell's threads, and I found his tone to be rather humorous. I have no opinion about the information that he offers, but it sounds like he's offering bad information.

That all goes way back and to another forum. Let's say He was banned for his "passion". He had a way of thinking that he was always right even when some of his methods were obliviously flawed.

 

[PhaetonFalling]

I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (Yes I had to look those up, so I just provided links for whomever was interested). I asked him to show me one of the knives and it's very very light compared to its shape, size, and geometry. It seemed OK sharp for a production knife, but it didn't seem THAT sharp.

The real downside is how poorly shaped the knife is and how small the knife is. The largest knife they make is is 8 inches, which to me seems a little small for chef's knife. They have a slicer and a santoku in the works.

Has anyone else actually used one of these knives?

 

[Mitbud]

Could they replicate an "S" grind? Getting a production knife with good geometry and consistently thin and even behind the edge seems to be beyond the current limits of automation. The VMatter knives look as thick and clunky as the German hatchets that they copied, but what if they tried to copy a Shig or DT instead?

This was my first thought. High production knives with great geometry.

 

[WildBoar]

I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (

sounds like he pulled some materials of properties terms and spun them to make a sales pitch that would impress people who had no background in materials science. All steels have an elastic range followed by a plastic range. How much strain an edge can take before it transitions from elastic to plastic deformation is likely dependent on the steel composition, the heat treatment and the edge geometry. You can design steel structures using methods based on the elastic properties (allowable stress design) or based on it's plastic properties (plastic design).

 

[malexthekid]

I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (Yes I had to look those up, so I just provided links for whomever was interested). I asked him to show me one of the knives and it's very very light compared to its shape, size, and geometry. It seemed OK sharp for a production knife, but it didn't seem THAT sharp.

The real downside is how poorly shaped the knife is and how small the knife is. The largest knife they make is is 8 inches, which to me seems a little small for chef's knife. They have a slicer and a santoku in the works.

Has anyone else actually used one of these knives?

First post here, just getting into the whole knife scene etc. so I can't comment on this from that side, but I am an engineer in my day job so have a basic understanding of metallurgy and reasonable mechanics of materials.

Look at it from this point, my problem is this, given he talks about the metal being a lot more elastic than typical cutlery steel, I would have a guess that the level of elasticity required to prevent the blade from "dulling" after continually hitting cutting boards etc. would potentially mean that it is too elastic to cut through tougher vegetables etc.

If as they describe it the tip elastically deforms on impact with the cutting board and then "springs" back into shape afterwards would essentially mean it would potentially deform while cutting through something semi tough. So it would all come down to how elastic the metal is. And for it to be "forever sharp" if what they say is true, I would suggest it would be reasonable elastic which I would suggest would mean it would be that good for push cutting some items. It is a balancing act, for example if it was only designed for using on quite soft cutting boards, then I can see it working to a degree as it wouldn't need to be that elastic, however if they want to cover it against harder surfaces too, then it would need to be more elastic, which would then potentially mean deforming on items being cut.

But I could be totally wrong, just my logic from reading the blurb and my engineering approach at it (which in itself isn't always right).