What constitutes a good sharpener?

[tk59]

Am I missing something, you need to sharpen three to four times a day? What is causing your edges to fail, so quickly? I take longer then 15 minutes to sharpen, but my edges last weeks if not months, depending upon the knife. In a restaurant, I'd assume the edge would last at least a day, and maybe as long as a week.

Jay

I assumed he was doing some touching up or maybe he just cuts leeks and bones all day.

 

[phan1]

Am I missing something, you need to sharpen three to four times a day? What is causing your edges to fail, so quickly? I take longer then 15 minutes to sharpen, but my edges last weeks if not months, depending upon the knife. In a restaurant, I'd assume the edge would last at least a day, and maybe as long as a week.

Jay

Well, I've mostly worked Japanese restaurants; some of which require absolutely the highest standards in knife cuts. I had to sharpen my knife before every prep task (onions, scallions, cucumber etc.). Some places, doing the work was nearly impossible if you didn't own a usuba. It really just depends on what your doing and what your restaurant expects of you. Some places I've only needed to sharpen once a week, others 2-3 times a day.

You can be sure that a lot of Japanese Kaiseki guys, particularly ones that take pride in their vegetable work, are sharpening multiple times a day. From my limited experience, Japanese chefs are less obsessed with polishing up their knives to super-high grits. They usually just use #1000 king stones and have a philosophy of "I sharpen my knives everyday anyway, what's the point of doing it 3-4 times across 3-4 stones in one sitting?". I understand that we're a community of knife nerds and obssessives that are always looking for the "holy grail" of sharpness, but it sometimes isn't very practical in real world settings.

 

[Dave Martell]

A good sharpener is never content......and......would never use a Gizmo

 

[Chefdog]

A good sharpener is never content...

This is a great point. After you get comfortable with putting a nice edge on your knives you'll start adjusting and tweaking your edges looking for something else. Whether it's different edges for different knives, or experimenting with different levels of refinement, or how to extract the most edge retention, or playing with micro-bevels, or convexing your blades, or altering asymmetry, OR........

 

[labor of love]

This is a great point. After you get comfortable with putting a nice edge on your knives you'll start adjusting and tweaking your edges looking for something else. Whether it's different edges for different knives, or experimenting with different levels of refinement, or how to extract the most edge retention, or playing with micro-bevels, or convexing your blades, or altering asymmetry, OR........

yeah, ive been working hard on my microbevels lately...whatever it takes to improve edge retention...im definitely never content.

 

[chinacats]

yeah, ive been working hard on my microbevels lately...whatever it takes to improve edge retention...im definitely never content.

I understand that from the pro's, but as a home user I am content to let them degrade so I can resharpen more often. I run fairly acute angles and beat hell out of an edge just so I can do it all over again. Oh and I suck at making a nice consistent microbevel :newhere:

 

[labor of love]

I understand that from the pro's, but as a home user I am content to let them degrade so I can resharpen more often. I run fairly acute angles and beat hell out of an edge just so I can do it all over again. Oh and I suck at making a nice consistent microbevel :newhere:

well thats cool too!

 

[bieniek]

Well, I've mostly worked Japanese restaurants; some of which require absolutely the highest standards in knife cuts. I had to sharpen my knife before every prep task (onions, scallions, cucumber etc.). Some places, doing the work was nearly impossible if you didn't own a usuba. It really just depends on what your doing and what your restaurant expects of you. Some places I've only needed to sharpen once a week, others 2-3 times a day.

Please dont get me wrong but
1. The highest standard with knife cuts and sharpening done on King 1k stone?
2. I could imagine sharpening a knife after every task but isnt that l'art pour l'art? I mean, How much spring onions, or cucumber for that matter, would you have to cut to degrade the edge so significantly, enough to sharpen again? It definitely is possible but this restaurant would have to be like 500 seater or something unlikely japanese.

Im not saying youre wrong or lying, just curious.

 

[memorael]

Hi have stopped going beyond 1k for a while now and while I can notice a difference in sharpness to some extent I now prefer a 1k edge done properly over some other edges. The aggressiveness from the 1k is something you get used to and also I like how the the edge needs some action from your hand to cut. Edges that are to polished would some times slip past the cut I wanted to do or just make me feel like I lost touch with the knife. The cuts are as clean and I find no reason why a 1k edge can't be as good an edge as a 10k.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Hi have stopped going beyond 1k for a while now and while I can notice a difference in sharpness to some extent I now prefer a 1k edge done properly over some other edges. The aggressiveness from the 1k is something you get used to and also I like how the the edge needs some action from your hand to cut. Edges that are to polished would some times slip past the cut I wanted to do or just make me feel like I lost touch with the knife. The cuts are as clean and I find no reason why a 1k edge can't be as good an edge as a 10k.

+1 agree a properly done med. stone edge works well for most prep work.

 

[Benuser]

A good deburring is so much easier after a 2k.

 

[Don Nguyen]

Taking an edge to a higher grit in general reduces the burr size, right?

Edit: Thanks for the responses everyone!

 

[Chefdog]

Taking an edge to a higher grit in general reduces the burr size, right?

Edit: Thanks for the responses everyone!

As long as you're using increasingly lighter pressure as you move up in grits, then it should reduce the size of your burr. It's also possible to completely remove the burr at (for example) 1K, then move up to 4 K and create a new one. In that case, you'd have a larger burr at 4K than you did at 1K. Make sense? So I guess the answer then is, "It depends." And it's dependant on how YOU choose to sharpen.

I always try to deburr as completely as I can starting at my 1K stone, and then to raise only the smallest burr at the next stone, and again to deburr completely before stropping. I only sharpen to 4K, so most of the time I'm only using 2 stones, but when I start at the bottom (400), I'm comfortable jumping to 1K without removing the burr entirely.

 

[Chef Doom]

So in other words the endless amounts of money that I put in to all these high grit stones was worthless? I might have to go out and seek a few refunds. I can't stand the constant backtracking that goes on around here. I demand an official apology.

 

[bieniek]

Hi have stopped going beyond 1k for a while now and while I can notice a difference in sharpness to some extent I now prefer a 1k edge done properly over some other edges. The aggressiveness from the 1k is something you get used to and also I like how the the edge needs some action from your hand to cut. Edges that are to polished would some times slip past the cut I wanted to do or just make me feel like I lost touch with the knife. The cuts are as clean and I find no reason why a 1k edge can't be as good an edge as a 10k.

Yeah I tried that before too but found it 1K edge to be running away to fast on yanagis, so in other words not enough control over cutting. I like the 3K [or whatever it is from natural stone] range better for the gloss on the slice too.

As to the usubas on the other hand I like the edge more polished but I guess 1K edge could be sufficient depends on what you like. For me personally too grainy and I spent some weeks just stropping over and over again. When I was using synthetic stones I was polishing quite high in terms of grit to 8K [and on Naniwa SS] and stropping on loaded felt very pleasant feeling when the knife just slips through cucumber or pepper skins.

Just remember I really am using two stones JNS and binsui and this is providing me with plenty a bite yet the edge is more "controlable". I think its a good compromise for all edges but again usubas go to ohira, I dont have a clue about grit range but its plenty of bite [just different kind] there too.

Not too sure whether the honing process alone takes so much time? I would say most struggle with other peoples knives is initial bevel setting and thinning for most part. If honing takes 5 % of that time thats all.

 

[bieniek]

So in other words the endless amounts of money that I put in to all these high grit stones was worthless?

Haha of course. Same with knives, isnt it?
Cause one thing that is not getting mentioned very often is that edge will not be better cutting in real life settings after additional honing.

 

[zitangy]

As long as you're using increasingly lighter pressure as you move up in grits, then it should reduce the size of your burr. It's also possible to completely remove the burr at (for example) 1K, then move up to 4 K and create a new one. In that case, you'd have a larger burr at 4K than you did at 1K. Make sense? So I guess the answer then is, "It depends." And it's dependant on how YOU choose to sharpen.

I always try to deburr as completely as I can starting at my 1K stone, and then to raise only the smallest burr at the next stone, and again to deburr completely before stropping. I only sharpen to 4K, so most of the time I'm only using 2 stones, but when I start at the bottom (400), I'm comfortable jumping to 1K without removing the burr entirely.

ZZZ >> Pressure: it is subjective as we all are built differently. Some are heavy handed and some are generally gentle by nature.

Only by feel and experience you wld know the pressure required to achieve that objective. The finer the stone, given the same pressure applied, it will shave less steel? Below 1000 grit, when I am off form adn seem not to be able to get it done fast, I wld use a hone rod about the same grit adn do only cutting strokes.

removing burr is an important stage in sharpening as without it the edge is not pointy. I only use cutting strokes onto the stone as presumably it will break or cut off the burr and a few further additional strokes wld be needed as i believe that after it breaks off the edge wld be a little rounded. I wld apply alternating sides adn presumably that the pressure applied is the same. BUt alas, the way we hold it differs when edge is facing you vs spice facing you dooms us to problems as it applies different amount of pressure on the Blade. YOU will have to compensate.. Experience adn feel. That's why counting strokes per se is not a passport to a balanced edge ( no burrs)

Thast why if ONLY edge trailing strokes are applied in sharpening on both sides of a knife, burr removal can be a challenge. At the very least On one side must be a cutting stroke.

Grit size: GEnerally the smoother the stone, the finer the burr as it removes less metal per stroke and hence more strokes to remove the burr and the burr created on the finer stone is finer ;unless you keep on shaving steel to develop the big burr. BUt we all shld know how to feel for teh slightest burr. I remember reading that MArtel mentioned that it wld be good to remove burr on that particular grit stone before proceeding to the next smoother stone adn it makes sense as trying to remove burr on a finer stone which has less cutting power will require more strokes; unless the jump in grit is small. Having said that.. what ever works is fine. Like Don, I am always trying to make sharpening sessions more time effective.

Have fun and stay sharp...
C

 

[xuz]

For kitchen knife, frankly I don't really pay much attention. Before dinner, 3 or 4 strokes on chosera 1k, 2 strokes on 5k and it's ready to go.
Consistency in bevel from heel to toe? Doesn't matter.
20 degree vs 40 degree leading angle? Same.
Is it uglier than a deer turd? Ditto.
I've once had a knife that got a chip after dropping it from counter, and I couldn't tell the difference; I'm sure the leg of lamb didn't notice the difference either. As long as the blade is maintained relatively well daily, it will perform well.

So in other words the endless amounts of money that I put in to all these high grit stones was worthless?

But of course there's the kitchen knife, then there's the hobby knife.
For me this is one of the 20 or so straight razors that I have/had in the past, and the yanagiba I pull out once in a while to try the bodyguard routine. (You know, Whitney Houston, scarf, katana.)
There's something VERY therapeutic about sharpening the edge to the point where it can effortless sever the molecular bonds that constitute the nature's very fabric.
Drop that hair on the straight razor honed on yellow green Escher. Ooooo.
Slice through that extra thin, slightly damp newspaper with your yanagiba honed on Suehiro Gokumyo. Aaaaaa.
I am also guilty of dropping several grand on hones over the several decades.
BUT! I can say that my relatively healthy mental health is in part due to the ZEN like practice of getting that perfect edge on these hobby knives. It's worth every penny! You hear that wifey?!!
There's something very calming and focusing about getting that perfectly consistent bevel from heel to toe.
And something very satisfying about effortlessly decapitating a strand of hair without the slightest of pressure.

 

[Drumjockey]

I think a good sharpener... is still not the guy I see in my mirror. And I'm pretty sure he still has no idea what he's doing, but his edges are getting better, slowly Thanks for this thread, very helpful to see so many different takes on this!

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Carbon Steel Single Bevels & polishing stones go together like Fish and Poi

 

[boomchakabowwow]

mmmm...poi.

 

[memorael]

So in other words the endless amounts of money that I put in to all these high grit stones was worthless? I might have to go out and seek a few refunds. I can't stand the constant backtracking that goes on around here. I demand an official apology.

I wouldn't call the stones worthless, they still have tons of purpose. I still like taking some knives to the highest levels possible that I know of and can achieve. A 1k edge though done properly gives me the characteristics I look for on the knives that I use in my restaurant. There is no point in taking it beyond 1k when all my cuts are pretty rough. If I want though to cut something like black truffles I would not use a 1k edge, nor would I use a 1k edge for sashimi using a carbon knife. There is no one knife to solve all problems equally well, that is why variety is the spice of life. :thumbsup:

 

[phan1]

Please dont get me wrong but
1. The highest standard with knife cuts and sharpening done on King 1k stone?
2. I could imagine sharpening a knife after every task but isnt that l'art pour l'art? I mean, How much spring onions, or cucumber for that matter, would you have to cut to degrade the edge so significantly, enough to sharpen again? It definitely is possible but this restaurant would have to be like 500 seater or something unlikely japanese.

Im not saying youre wrong or lying, just curious.

I absolutely believe the highest level knife cuts can be done off a 1k stone. Polishing it up to an #8000 will make your edge last longer, but it will take a bit more time to get there, so it kind of cancels out. Your better off keeping it simple and using your #1000 rather than using extra stones to push out an extra hour out of your knife.

As for needing to sharpen almost before every task, you would have to do it if your chef expected you to cut things as best as humanely possible. I'm not going to drop restaurant names, but there are probably less than 10 restaurants in the entire country that would expect you to do this, and I think all of them would be Japanese. You shouldn't have a slimy board after cutting green onions, and your herbs should not have any discoloration. It should look "alive" as my chef would say, as if the vegetable grew into tiny pieces rather than having been cut.

It's mostly about keeping that "bite" on your knife, and you'll notice that the "bite" on your knife deteriorates VERY quickly, hence the need to keep sharpening. And if you only "rock cut", that bite on your knife is going to be gone in minutes (seconds more likely). Your knife can still be technically "sharp" without that bite, but not good enough for green onions and delicate herbs. Such attention to detail can actually be done in fine dining, low seat restaurants (definitely under 100 seats).

As far as high grit stones being worthless, I don't think they are. I like having high grit stones to sort of "test the limits" of my knife. I'm sure you guys know, some steels respond differently to high grit stones. A VG10 versus a white #2 off a #12000 stone is pretty different...

 

[chinacats]

It's mostly about keeping that "bite" on your knife, and you'll notice that the "bite" on your knife deteriorates VERY quickly, hence the need to keep sharpening. And if you only "rock cut", that bite on your knife is going to be gone in minutes (seconds more likely). Your knife can still be technically "sharp" without that bite, but not good enough for green onions and delicate herbs. Such attention to detail can actually be done in fine dining, low seat restaurants (definitely under 100 seats).

I'm no pro--maybe not even a good amateur, but I have to question an edge gone in seconds while making any style of cuts; sounds like a wire to me...:whistling:

 

[Chef Doom]

What constitutes a good sharpener?

When Michael Mayers can lop off your head with one swipe, and then butcher a whole pig for a evening party, and then slice sashimi with the Jiro stamp of approval. Same knife, no touch up in between.

 

[TheDispossessed]

i've been freehand sharpening for a little over a year now and feel i just recently got to a place i am happy with, where i am getting consistently good result with little time and steel lost. many thanks to jon broida for his videos, and the class he did at our restauarant, those both helped a whole lot. i took the plunge and invested in a set of gesshin stones (400, 2000, 4000) and quite enjoy using them. i'm a bit obsessive about sharpening but will not bring those stones to work or use the massively dished out kings lying around, so i bring my kit home daily and touch up my edges before every shift. with such routine maintenance i find i only ever use the 4k stone now, which believe me, will raise a burr very quickly on quality steel with little to no pressure. i follow this up by stropping on newsprint laid over the stone, no compounds or anything. i'm able to get my three primary blades done, oiled and put away in about 15 minutes.
the bottom line for me is a good sharpener is someone who cares, who takes pride in their tools and is always seeking improvement. i accord some respect in the kitchen not by who has the most expensive tools, but who cares for theirs the most.
sharpening my knives is my favorite part of my day. someone asked me what i think about when i sharpen and i realized, i think about nothing but sharpening, so it's very 'zen' for me in that way. not a lot of the rest of my day usually is...

 

[memorael]

I dont sharpen as often as I used to, but when I do I notice that I no longer seek improving my edges with different higher grit stones but rather on how good I can do it with less tools. I also notice that when I sharpen I only think about what is going on and forget about everything else, I also make sure my fingers are out of harms way... seen plenty of bloody stuff happen. I also like doing crazy stuff most people wont try like taking a dmt xxc edge and polishing it only with a 10k and then trying to shave just to see if it works, and it does! I also agree that the best sharpeners arent the ones that try to get the best edge but try to make sure their work is done to the best of their knowledge. This usually takes care of the edge part since in hierarchy according to me looking for an edge is lower than making sure you do your best, this is how people improve since once you get good at what your doing you start noticing that there is a better way to do what you already are doing.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Dispossessed,sounds good,we had the dished Kings at work too.Glad to hear your sharpening is working well.I've always enjoyed,it is relaxing after a busy day.

 

[TheDispossessed]

thanks salty dog!

 

[bieniek]

I absolutely believe the highest level knife cuts can be done off a 1k stone. Polishing it up to an #8000 will make your edge last longer, but it will take a bit more time to get there, so it kind of cancels out. Your better off keeping it simple and using your #1000 rather than using extra stones to push out an extra hour out of your knife.

As for needing to sharpen almost before every task, you would have to do it if your chef expected you to cut things as best as humanely possible. I'm not going to drop restaurant names, but there are probably less than 10 restaurants in the entire country that would expect you to do this, and I think all of them would be Japanese. You shouldn't have a slimy board after cutting green onions, and your herbs should not have any discoloration. It should look "alive" as my chef would say, as if the vegetable grew into tiny pieces rather than having been cut.

It's mostly about keeping that "bite" on your knife, and you'll notice that the "bite" on your knife deteriorates VERY quickly, hence the need to keep sharpening. And if you only "rock cut", that bite on your knife is going to be gone in minutes (seconds more likely). Your knife can still be technically "sharp" without that bite, but not good enough for green onions and delicate herbs. Such attention to detail can actually be done in fine dining, low seat restaurants (definitely under 100 seats).

As far as high grit stones being worthless, I don't think they are. I like having high grit stones to sort of "test the limits" of my knife. I'm sure you guys know, some steels respond differently to high grit stones. A VG10 versus a white #2 off a #12000 stone is pretty different...

I hear you but disagree.
Firstly about the finer edges lasting longer. Never happened to me guess thats why I changed 7 stone progression and 2 strops to 2 simple stones and a piece of leather.

I am not saying 1K edge is not useful, Im just saying theres much better to be taken out of the steel than just 1K. Few strokes on [even] somewhere around 3K and youre getting much much much better keener edge that slices cleaner.
If the chef expects sharpest thats respectable, but saying 1K is best for fine slicing is irresponsible. Nor it takes long time to hone a little more, and possibly be breaking of the wires.