what steels and why

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I was really surprised to see how low white and blue super ended up being.
 
Larrin said:
I was really surprised to see how low white and blue super ended up being.
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Really? Because of their mythological status? I mean they are really simple steels, nothing out of the ordinary on paper at least.

-AJ
 
Here are the rankings without stain resistance being factored in:
AEB-L 7.5
52100 7.375
mystery carbon 7.125
mystery stainless PM 6.875
super wear resistant 6.5
O1 6.5
white 6.375
CPM-154 6
19C27 5.875
blue super 5.625
VG-10 5.5
440C 5.25
 
Larrin said:
I was really surprised to see how low white and blue super ended up being.
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I wasn't too surprised about the white (white 1? if it's white 2 I'd also be surprised since it seems to be tougher and edges more stable) but I did think the wear resistance was higher than I expected on blue super and the sharpenability, edge stability and toughness were lower.
 
ajhuff said:
Really? Because of their mythological status? I mean they are really simple steels, nothing out of the ordinary on paper at least.

-AJ
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I just thought they would have more balance using the pre-determined rating system. I guess it's a good sign that bias is being limited if you're surprised where things end up.
 
Larrin said:
Here are the rankings without stain resistance being factored in:
AEB-L 7.5
52100 7.375
mystery carbon 7.125
mystery stainless PM 6.875
super wear resistant 6.5
O1 6.5
white 6.375
CPM-154 6
19C27 5.875
blue super 5.625
VG-10 5.5
440C 5.25
Click to expand...

That looks like a list we could almost universally agree on, based on experience. I think the pm stainless should be higher though. It sharpens almost like AEB-L but holds a nicer edge longer, at least the way I sharpen and use the knife.
 
tk59 said:
I wasn't too surprised about the white (white 1? if it's white 2 I'd also be surprised since it seems to be tougher and edges more stable) but I did think the wear resistance was higher than I expected on blue super and the sharpenability, edge stability and toughness were lower.
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It is White #1. Blue Super is one we discussed pretty extensively. It is fairly highly rated by people on the forums but we've never observed any of those touted characteristics in knives we own so that's where its ratings ended up. We tried not to rate things according to hearsay on the forums but tried to stick with our own experience, other's comparative research, and manufacturer's own published information.
 
tk59 said:
That looks like a list we could almost universally agree on, based on experience. I think the pm stainless should be higher though. It sharpens almost like AEB-L but holds a nicer edge longer, at least the way I sharpen and use the knife.
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With more experience those numbers could change. With the mystery steels some of the numbers are conservative because the feedback has been limited to only a few people and we don't want to get over-excited.
 
Larrin said:
It is White #1. Blue Super is one we discussed pretty extensively. It is fairly highly rated by people on the forums but we've never observed any of those touted characteristics in knives we own so that's where its ratings ended up. We tried not to rate things according to hearsay on the forums but tried to stick with our own experience, other's comparative research, and manufacturer's own published information.
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How did you decide to work hardness into the equation?
 
Larrin said:
...With the mystery steels some of the numbers are conservative because the feedback has been limited to only a few people and we don't want to get over-excited.
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Yeah, it took me a long time to openly jump on the pm stainless bandwagon. I expected to like AEB-L better just based on ultimate sharpness potential.
 
tk59 said:
How did you decide to work hardness into the equation?
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Essentially hardness is included in every category, stain resistance being to a lesser extent. The ratings are based on the properties in what we think is the optimal hardness for the steel when used in kitchen knives. Certainly all of them would have higher toughness scores if they were all at 30-40 Rc.
 
Something that comes to mind is that I wonder how steels like white, blue, & AS would rate if worked by you guys versus you using these steels as found in Japanese knives?

I wonder this because AEB-L & 52100 rate high as you work them whereas some makers/manufacturers may not fair as well with these steels and could produce inferior results. An example of what I mean is that many people have used AEB-L knives from Japan and report poor edge retention yet so many people use your knives in AEB-L and report great edge retention.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
We have found that with careful forging and heat treating you can make a steel perform a lot better. Heat treating is more difficult than most people think, and takes a lot of practice to get good at it.

Hoss
 
Dave Martell said:
Something that comes to mind is that I wonder how steels like white, blue, & AS would rate if worked by you guys versus you using these steels as found in Japanese knives?

I wonder this because AEB-L & 52100 rate high as you work them whereas some makers/manufacturers may not fair as well with these steels and could produce inferior results. An example of what I mean is that many people have used AEB-L knives from Japan and report poor edge retention yet so many people use your knives in AEB-L and report great edge retention.

What are your thoughts on this?
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One easy example is that those AEB-L knives are usually 60 Rc at best, most are 58 or below. For people used to 61+ Rc it's just not going to perform as well. You'll notice we gave AEB-L only a 6 for edge holding, this is primarily a rating of wear resistance as you can see from the definition given earlier in the thread. Edge stability, however, is given a 10. People that use/sharpen their knives to favor edge stability will find the maximum edge holding with their AEB-L knives.
 
Larrin said:
12C27 is very similar to AEB-L. 12C27 has lower maximum hardness and wear resistance with a little better stain resistance.
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Yeah, i should clarify: How is your personal feelings about 12c27?

I've heard the AEB-L comparision before. 12c27 is quite a common steel here, cheap and nice. I can get a filet-knife (and i am getting one.. after an unpleasant experiance when i forgot my other filet-knife at home and had to use the schools. It's great to filet flat-fish with what feels like a butter-knife. Took hella time.)

30-40 bucks for a good 12c27 filet-knife is a steal imo.
 
Candlejack said:
Yeah, i should clarify: How is your personal feelings about 12c27?

I've heard the AEB-L comparision before. 12c27 is quite a common steel here, cheap and nice. I can get a filet-knife (and i am getting one.. after an unpleasant experiance when i forgot my other filet-knife at home and had to use the schools. It's great to filet flat-fish with what feels like a butter-knife. Took hella time.)

30-40 bucks for a good 12c27 filet-knife is a steal imo.
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We like AEB-L a lot, 12C27 is very similar, so we like 12C27 too.
 
Larrin said:
Essentially hardness is included in every category, stain resistance being to a lesser extent. The ratings are based on the properties in what we think is the optimal hardness for the steel when used in kitchen knives. Certainly all of them would have higher toughness scores if they were all at 30-40 Rc.
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Would it be too much to ask to put the hardness at which each steel was tested on the charts?
 
Candlejack said:
Yeah, i should clarify: How is your personal feelings about 12c27?

I've heard the AEB-L comparision before. 12c27 is quite a common steel here, cheap and nice. I can get a filet-knife (and i am getting one.. after an unpleasant experiance when i forgot my other filet-knife at home and had to use the schools. It's great to filet flat-fish with what feels like a butter-knife. Took hella time.)

30-40 bucks for a good 12c27 filet-knife is a steal imo.
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Why use 12c27 if AEB-L is going to hold it's edge a lot longer? It just has less carbon, right? AEB-L is already on low side of carbon content for knives.
 
tk59 said:
Why use 12c27 is AEB-L is going to hold it's edge a lot longer? It just has less carbon, right? AEB-L is already on low side of carbon content for knives.
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I kinda just wanted to hear what their experiances with it was. Just out of pure interest as it's a common steel here in Sweden.
 
I bought some 12c27 about 15 years ago or so. I made some kitchen knives out of it that were very thin. It sharpened nice and cut well. I think that AEB-L is a little better.

Hoss
 
tk59 said:
Would it be too much to ask to put the hardness at which each steel was tested on the charts?
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Most every thing that we have made is in the 62 to 63hrc range. Some knives from other makers have been harder and some softer. We tried to rate steels that we have had sufficient experiance with, wether we made them or from other sources.

Hoss
 
Is the spicy carbon steel that you used recently the same as the mystery carbon steel, or are they different steels?
 
Mystery carbon is an oil hardening steel and the spicy white is a water hardening steel. They are in a different class.

Good question Michael, thanks.

Hoss
 
Haha. I think we need something shorter to call all these mystery steels, kinda like what Henckels does. They should be dt-spicy, dt-carbon, dt-pm and dt-super or something of that nature.
 
It's true we do need better names.
 
Thanks Devin.

I'm assuming that since the spicy white is not listed, it does not rank high in your analysis.

+1 to tk's recommendation. For your mystery steels, a "DT" prefix would be a good thing.

DevinT said:
Mystery carbon is an oil hardening steel and the spicy white is a water hardening steel. They are in a different class.

Good question Michael, thanks.

Hoss
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mhlee said:
Thanks Devin.

I'm assuming that since the spicy white is not listed, it does not rank high in your analysis.

+1 to tk's recommendation. For your mystery steels, a "DT" prefix would be a good thing.
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Spicy white is slightly better than white but would rank the same.

Hoss
 
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