Which stainless can attain the highest level of sharpness?

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This is pretty much the requirement that I'm always looking for in a gyuto: stainless but sharp like carbon steel. So far, I've only experience with Devin Thomas's AEB-L and the Konosuke HD, and both are really great.

But honestly, though some say they get close to the sharpness of carbon, my experience has been that they just don't. As great as they are, my DT ITK and my Konosuke HD don't touch the level of sharpness that my blue #2 Aritsugu yanagi achieves. I think it depends on the stones. When I take my knives up to about 5k, then they're all doing great. When I go 8k and up, my blue #2 yanagi just starts leaving any stainless I've tried in the dust. That's why I'm always on the lookout for the next great stainless steel, cause I still think they have a lot of room for improvement.
 
Seb said:
What a load of nonsense and based on what?

You talking down Nenohi and Hattori? Good luck to you.
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I'd say the DT ITK has better steel than the Konosuke HD, which is definitely one of the best we've seen out of Japan. But it's not by much and I do prefer using the HD in most situations. And the ridiculously priced stainless Nenohi knives have really fallen out of favor in these forums over the years. From Marko's history as a forum member, I wouldn't doubt much of what he says.
 
Seb said:
What a load of nonsense and based on what?

You talking down Nenohi and Hattori? Good luck to you.
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And what do you base your comment on? Do you own a DT? Have you compared edge retention between DT and Japanese knives? I come to think that you know little about heat treating, steels and metallurgy in general, never done anything of the sort and here you call something than can be proven a nonsense? What makes you an expert on these things?

I would bet my money that DT will outcut Nenohi and Hattory on edge retention. And I would bet my money that DT AEB-L and some Japanese makers AEB-L (or equivalent) are completely different performer because of the custom heat treatment on DT.

M

PS: if you have any personal issues, address it on PM. We don't need any more drama here. :)
 
Addendum: I just realized I totally forgot about Niolox. I would probably take that right after Devin's AEB-L somewhere.

As for Marko's comment about Devin's HT, I don't know for sure either way but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.
 
Now I am itching to do a KD and DT side-by-side rope cutting test to compare edge retention, but would need DT to be ground similarly to KD (at least as thin).

I think this will be an interesting project and I already approached a well known member on this forum to do this type of test with me, to give the test credibility. Hopefully, we will put some myths to rest.

M
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
And what do you base your comment on? Do you own a DT? Have you compared edge retention between DT and Japanese knives? I come to think that you know little about heat treating, steels and metallurgy in general, never done anything of the sort and here you call something than can be proven a nonsense? What makes you an expert on these things?

I would bet my money that DT will outcut Nenohi and Hattory on edge retention. And I would bet my money that DT AEB-L and some Japanese makers AEB-L (or equivalent) are completely different performer because of the custom heat treatment on DT.

M

PS: if you have any personal issues, address it on PM. We don't need any more drama here. :)
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In other words, you have nothing but conjecture. Because you made the assertion, you are the one who bears the onus of proof, not me (it's a well-established tenet of Western justice).

My, aren't we paranoid? There is no personal issue here on my part but, by your own recent admission, you have been guilty of making loose, unsubstantiated shoot-from-the-hip statements - and you should expect to be called out on it. ;)

Keep your money in your pocket but watch what you say. :)

PS: I am an expert on logic and I am taking the time to school you because I come to think that you no little about it (as you have shown before).
 
Seb said:
PS: I am an expert on logic and I am taking the time to school you because I come to think that you no little about it (as you have shown before).
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An instant classic!

The possibilities are endless.

Seb you should change your user name to No Se.

Jay
 
You love the stage and don't miss an opportunity to use it, Mr. LOGIC EXPERT, but somehow your logic doesn't seem to apply when you consume myths that surround (or put forward by) Japanese knife makers. Obviously you brought up Nenohi and Hattori, so you think of them highly. On what basis? Do you own them? Do you know anybody on the forum who can attest to their performance? I am not talking about their ability to cut, but their ability to hold an edge for an extended period of time.

I have tested two steels with DT heat treatment and will test more and will back up my claims with proof, rest assure. And if need be, I will send out knives for a third-party testing.


M
 
Man, I knew I should have stayed away from this kind of thread, but my darn curiosity got the best of me. OP's, this is what you get when you elicit "what is the best" or "sharpest" type of threads. some like to instigate for this very purpose, but to those others, please be mindful of your posts, it is not that important to win an argument, or debate. there is no prize or award at the end, and the best that comes from it is a reputation that you might not expect.

it is not hard to discredit someone who claims, "this is the best" or "that is the sharpest" so why even try, nobody buys into that anyway. Instead of finding out what is the sharpest or best, get good at sharpening and creating bevels and you can do wonders with pretty much any steel out there. Right now, my $40 Kotetsu Nakiri screams through my cuts after re profile.
 
Just wondering, but outside of the Hattori KD, is there another knife to try in Cowry-x? Something that is obtainable in my lifetime?

k.
 
With lots of luck you might find a Sanetu santoku in Cowry X. Koki sold it years ago, now they make the same knife in ZDP-189.
 
Not nonsense, Devin uses science, not eyeballing, to do HT.
 
Getting back on topic I will say that the high hardness and brittleness of Cowry-X makes deburring very easy because the fracture on the burrs is easy. In many ways harder steel is easier to sharpen. It's kind of a myth that softer steel equals easier to sharpen. However, the large carbide volume of Cowry-X would kind of remove it from the competition.

With steel selection and heat treatment there are many factors to consider. The effect of hardness/toughness on sharpening is just one of those.
 
Does anyone know how cronidur 30 stacks up to the rest of the SS? I know the edge retaining of the steel won't compare to most steels used at an hrc of ~58, but it seems that with the high levels of nitrogen in the steel, it produces smaller nitrides and carbonitrides than more typical SS. Any info would be amusing...
 
The Edge said:
Does anyone know how cronidur 30 stacks up to the rest of the SS? I know the edge retaining of the steel won't compare to most steels used at an hrc of ~58, but it seems that with the high levels of nitrogen in the steel, it produces smaller nitrides and carbonitrides than more typical SS. Any info would be amusing...
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There's a data sheet here: http://steirereisen.at/joomla/images/files/datenblatt_cronidur30_.pdf
It doesn't have many comparisons but the micrographs show some nice fine carbides. It also has high corrosion resistance, of course, and good toughness. The main drawback is the somewhat limited peak hardness. And also availability to some extent. It's best suited to knives requiring high corrosion resistance, which is a somewhat limited application, IMO, and no I wouldn't consider kitchen knives to be one of those applications.
 
Larrin said:
It's possible to eyeball anything. :p
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LOL. I guess my comment should have read, "I was not aware that eyeballing stainless was a common practice anywhere." or something to that effect. Is that not the case?
 
tk59 said:
LOL. I guess my comment should have read, "I was not aware that eyeballing stainless was a common practice anywhere." or something to that effect. Is that not the case?
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It wouldn't surprise me if someone out there is doing it, maybe even a Japanese maker. You are correct in that most people aren't stupid enough to attempt it. However, as far as I know there aren't any Japanese smiths out there claiming the superiority of their stainless heat treatment. So that removes us from the argument of traditional Japanese heat treating vs modern methods. My assumption from the equipment exhibited in various online videos for Japanese knifemakers is that they send out their stainless knives for heat treatment. When it comes to the mass produced stainless Japanese knives (of which there are many, of course), they have a pretty vanilla mass heat treatment.
 
I hope everyone understands that I answered Cowry-X to the original poster's question of what stainless can attain the highest level of sharpness. I didn't consider edge retention when I answered.

If the question had been give me a list of the top stainless steels that attain the highest level of sharpness I would have answered Cowry-X (Hattori KD), AEB-L (Devin Thomas), CPM-154 (Butch Harner) as the ones that come to my mind as being able to get crazy sharp. Notice I listed the makers next to each steel? I think this is important because steel is only one part of the equation of what matters when trying to make a knife sharp, it's just one piece of the puzzle. The other factor is what the maker does with the steel through heat treat and geometry grinds. I find it hard to say "X" steel is the best for anything without knowing who'll be using it to make (or has made) the knife.

Also worth noting is that I don't like to compare single bevels to doubles since they're such different creatures geometry wise. It's easy to fool ourselves by saying the steel from a yanigiba gets sharper than the steel from a gyuto simply because the geometry of the yanigiba has a distinct advantage and lends itself to making a sharper edge or maybe one that feels sharper anyway. For instance has anyone ever sharpened a gyuto and yanigiba with the same steel from the same maker and not found the yanagiba to be the better cutter?

Just some food for thought....
 
Something that you guys may find amusing is that when it comes to belt sharpening (not using stones at all - that's different) I find Shun's VG10 to be one of the best screaming edges I can provide. I hate to hand sharpen these knives for the same reasons many of you guys do but I love belt sharpening them - I'll take these in for sharpening over honyaki Gokinkomokoyoko steel any day of the week.
 
Dave Martell said:
Also worth noting is that I don't like to compare single bevels to doubles since they're such different creatures geometry wise. It's easy to fool ourselves by saying the steel from a yanigiba gets sharper than the steel from a gyuto simply because the geometry of the yanigiba has a distinct advantage and lends itself to making a sharper edge or maybe one that feels sharper anyway.
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WORD.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
You love the stage and don't miss an opportunity to use it, Mr. LOGIC EXPERT, but somehow your logic doesn't seem to apply when you consume myths that surround (or put forward by) Japanese knife makers. Obviously you brought up Nenohi and Hattori, so you think of them highly. On what basis? Do you own them? Do you know anybody on the forum who can attest to their performance? I am not talking about their ability to cut, but their ability to hold an edge for an extended period of time.

I have tested two steels with DT heat treatment and will test more and will back up my claims with proof, rest assure. And if need be, I will send out knives for a third-party testing.


M
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It's pretty obvious that you have a vested commercial interest in talking down Japanese knives, just as you attempted to talk down another vendor recently.

You, sir, are simply full of hot air. What you offered was not even opinion, it was a brain-fart.
 
jaybett said:
An instant classic!

The possibilities are endless.

Seb you should change your user name to No Se.

Jay
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Sey, wats yer probelm anywayz? You can hav a tanttrumm like last week but no one else iz allowd?

Get yer momz to wipe yer azz.
 
Let's try to raise the level of discourse here, not lower it further. If you do not want to talk about what stainless steels and which, in your opinion, get the sharpest, leave it out of this thread.
 
Seb said:
Sey, wats yer probelm anywayz? You can hav a tanttrumm like last week but no one else iz allowd?

Get yer momz to wipe yer azz.
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The master of logic in his wisdom has spoken.

Oh and you could also change your user to name to Sgt. Schultz. Remember the character from Hogan's Heros? His signature line was, "I know nothing". In your case it would be I no nothing.

Jay
 
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