Another Chef Suicide

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ecchef said:
What a bunch of (female cats). I wonder if his widow is cute...:whistling:
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violier-aston-martin.jpg
 
Very poor taste, gentlemen (and I am using that term ironically at the moment). This thread is the only thing I have seen so far that has turned me off to this community.
 
I feel the need to expand my thoughts. You may feel that anyone who commits suicide is a *****. You are entitled to that misguided view. What you are forgetting is that many people who read this will have lost a friend or family member to suicide. Getting over such an event is a long, painful process. Getting through the guilt, anger, regret, and plain old grief associated with suicide is not easy. The posts you have made here will rip open wounds for many people who read them. I would encourage you to take them down.
 
I'm not in that camp you speak of as I haven't lost a close friend to suicide but, I share your sentiment and thank you for sharing. I think the community here has lost folks to suicide, has helped support folks through grieving, through depression and other trying times in their lives, and has generally been humane to each other at the end of the day. The professional kitchen in my experience leaves very little room for humanity or at the very least does little to encourage it. Wages, working conditions, working through illness, lack of time off, disparate schedule from the rest of the world, long hours/weeks/years, abusive power structures, FOH/BOH structural inequalities, at will employment, lower pay for undocumented workers, and on and on. Everyone has their struggles and I can imagine they are magnified when at the height of the restaurant world and ultimately as the point person for the livelihoods of countless families, whom based on the article I would wager feel far more grief at the loss of the human than anger at being 'let down.' I don't think most pro cooks, myself included, come here to double down on the culture, the ego stroking, and the mysogeny.
On a side note, eechef, not to pick fights, but aren't you a mod? I get you're trying to poke fun, but take a step back and think if your audience was the widow you make reference to, would you try to emasculate her husband and comment on her physical attractiveness? Even if the answer is yes, I believe there's a line you crossed when it comes to creating a welcoming community here.
 
This is a quote from David Foster Wallace's _Infinite Jest_ and is the most visceral and accurate description of intense suicidality I have read. I'm trying to fathom poking fun at such a subject.

"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames. Yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don‘t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
Apologies to those who interpreted the posting of a picture of Chef Violier and his wife as approval of the post replied to.
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With respect, how else could one interpret the posting of that picture?
 
The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.
 
WildBoar said:
The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.
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With respect to the quote, it is more than conjecture; the author committed suicide a few years later. The experience in the quote is also backed up by my own experience with suicidality. It's not "Gee, this is hard, I think I'll kill myself today." It's finally giving in after weeks, months or years of asking every day, "How can I NOT kill myself today."

The attitudes toward suicide that you describe also aren't conducive to preventing suicide in those who are suffering.
 
I took it as "Yes, his widow is hot, here she is."
 
I'll go with your interpretation, especially in light of the poster's apology.
 
I think this whole thread has gotten off topic, the sad thing is still the loss of a great chef who succumbed to his own personal demons, which I am sure were polarized by the constant stress of wanting to be on top.
 
Maybe so, but sometimes going astray can lead to something fruitful. It makes you wonder what it means to hack it in his industry and who is the beholder of that supposed standard. I agree with wildboar that suicide isn't or at least shouldn't be a taboo subject as it diminishes the capacity for people to share those personal demons you mentioned as well as our capacity to listen and empathize.
 
pleue said:
Maybe so, but sometimes going astray can lead to something fruitful. It makes you wonder what it means to hack it in his industry and who is the beholder of that supposed standard. I agree with wildboar that suicide isn't or at least shouldn't be a taboo subject as it diminishes the capacity for people to share those personal demons you mentioned as well as our capacity to listen and empathize.
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Well said.
 
Certainly a tragic event, anytime someone makes the choice to take their own life. But I had a similar reaction as ecchef when reading how many experts were lined up to explain how this action was a consequence of the culinary profession with its impossible expectations and by God something must done. And NOW.

It is a demanding profession, and expectations are sometimes impossible but the same can be said for others. At the end of the day the chef chose to check out and we'll prob never know why.

I would not have expressed my reaction to the story but ecchef certainly has a right to his opinion - even if it pisses others off.
 
I think you're reading too much into a one line quote.

I know that this will probably be poorly received, but the fact of the matter is that he chose to make her a widow. I don't see the problem with drawing attention to the fact that she is now alone and that she is the true victim here.

My thoughts immediately turned to his family, and I interpreted that quote as genuine concern for the family, but phased in the words of a gruff, hard-boiled guy.

I don't pretend to know what the guy was going through, but if I'm living in terror, my number one priority is to stay as close as possible to my wife and do everything possible to protect her from it.
 
WildBoar said:
The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.
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I think most of your post is right, except the last part about pros... at least in my point of view.

The restaurant industry is plagued by alcoholism and drugs addiction, which are almost always symptoms of a deeper mental illness, whether it be clinical depression or what have you. There is a lot of romanticizing about going to the bar after work, yadda yadda. There are always a few people in every kitchen who spend the bulk of their paycheck on rent and getting altered. It is sad to see someone who is like a family member, like a comrade in the trenches, self destruct outside of work. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's sad to see people going down the "wrong path."

Although IMO it is in bad taste to speak ill of the dead, and in particular someone who has killed themselves. I would see suicide as really the ultimate expression of a person's pain and deluded state of mind, and I think it is really saddening.

I don't know the reason why the gentleman in question killed himself (the chef) but this isn't the first michelin chef it happened to.


However it's not taboo. I don't think ecchef is a bad guy for saying what he did, that is a sentiment about suicidality that that is condoned by society, and is especially prevalent in North America, I guess I could postulate this is perhaps a relic of North America's history which is deeply intertwined with Christianity (I think suicide is a mortal sin if I recall, or something). However simply because something is condoned by the majority does not make it right.

Anyway. Everyone's takeaway should be about mental illness, if someone close to you seems depressed you should do what you can to help them or get them help. :eyebrow:

To our health (mental and physical),
sourstock
 
spoiledbroth said:
I don't think ecchef is a bad guy for saying what he did, that is a sentiment about suicidality that that is condoned by society, and is especially prevalent in North America, I guess I could postulate this is perhaps a relic of North America's history which is deeply intertwined with Christianity (I think suicide is a mortal sin if I recall, or something). However simply because something is condoned by the majority does not make it right.
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You are correct, suicide is generally considered to be the ultimate rejection of salvation through Christ.
 
Tragic and I'm sure unexpected, a person probably wouldn't have thought this could happen when you see he's doing so well and had a lot going for him. I see a happy couple in that picture and not someone who appears to be at the edge, unfortunate to have to suffer in silence. Just goes to show that mental illnesses don't care who you are. RIP
 
spoiledbroth said:
The restaurant industry is plagued by alcoholism and drugs addiction, which are almost always symptoms of a deeper mental illness, whether it be clinical depression or what have you. There is a lot of romanticizing about going to the bar after work, yadda yadda. There are always a few people in every kitchen who spend the bulk of their paycheck on rent and getting altered. It is sad to see someone who is like a family member, like a comrade in the trenches, self destruct outside of work. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's sad to see people going down the "wrong path."
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Sounds similar to what I remember going on back during my time in the industry
 
TimH said:
Very poor taste, gentlemen (and I am using that term ironically at the moment). This thread is the only thing I have seen so far that has turned me off to this community.
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+1

The stigma still attached to psychological diseases makes me sick.

Nobody would ever say anything detrimental about someone with cancer. But why depression and other neurological diseases?
 
Bill13 said:
Here is another article with a nice video embedded that gives a better sense of the chef. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-highlights-pressure-cooker-of-haute-cuisine/
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An excellent piece, but instead of "suicide highlights pressure-cooker of haute cuisine," I would like to see "suicide highlights insidious nature of mental illness."

I'm a college science prof. I often tell students "there is a very fine line between careful attention to detail and malignant perfectionism. Attention to detail will take you far. Perfectionism can kill you. Only you can tell where that line is."

I always worry a bit (from experience) when we send perfectionists to med school.
 
TimH said:
An excellent piece, but instead of "suicide highlights pressure-cooker of haute cuisine," I would like to see "suicide highlights insidious nature of mental illness."

I'm a college science prof. I often tell students "there is a very fine line between careful attention to detail and malignant perfectionism. Attention to detail will take you far. Perfectionism can kill you. Only you can tell where that line is."

I always worry a bit (from experience) when we send perfectionists to med school.
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Why is Med school a concern? I'd be more concerned about Engineering.

To my mind Engineering is one of the single worst professions for a perfectionist to find themselves in.

As a result of being a perfectionist, I had to leave the profession before even graduating. There was one time when there was a group project for which my work scored 100%, but the work contributed by the other members was incredibly poor (40%). The net result was that everyone in the group would be awarded 50% (so I dropped by 50% on account of their poor work while they all gained 10% on account of mine). I was also not willing to have my name associated with the overall project, and was not allowed to do the whole project alone (which I was willing to do). I decided to remove my name from the submitted work and receive no credit rather than being associated with it and there being no clear indication of which portion of the work was mine. If I'd stayed in that profession I would probably have ended up killing people...

It has however been a great blessing when running my own businesses!

My guess would be that Medicine is almost the opposite (in terms of focus) with the person blaming themselves for every death, whereas in Engineering it culminates in exasperation at incompetent co-workers.
 
In reading the comments following the Post article one statement stood out to me. This person thought that since his whole adult life (really earlier I think) was spent working towards being the best restaurant in the world. Once he got that recognition in December he had nothing else to live for. Those offended by ecchef's comment (I was not) may not want to read the comments because many people are writing in who were personally affected by a loved ones suicide describing the action as being the last selfish act of a selfish person.

This is the problem with an unbalanced life. It's a conundrum many people face because it is very hard if not impossible to run a small successful business without neglecting some other aspect of your life. Not to say my business is all that successful (and certainly not as demanding as working in a successful restaurant), but my wife reminds me of my inattention fairly frequently.
 
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