Another Chef Suicide

[Bill13]

Today the Post also had an interesting article about how ketamine is being used to help treat depression: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...e73862-b490-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html

Most interesting was the description that the psychotic nature of the drug helped those being treated feel more connected to others and not so alone in the world. The results are almost immediate which I have to imagine would be so life altering to those who suffer badly and all other treatments have failed. It's a last resort because it is known on the street as Special K and the date rape drug.

 

[ChefCosta]

I think that we can all agree that it is poor form to mock the recently deceased regardless of circumstance and I would imagine that with some time to reflect ecchef is unlikely to remain proud of what he chose to write. That being said, we kitchen folks tend to have a dark sense of humor that often goes too far. Humor is a coping device for many people and, while I do not know ecchef personally, it is not hard to imagine that could be what was going on here.

 

[panda]

i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.

 

[alterwisser]

i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.

Yes, it is selfish! But then again: It's a selfish world and people do selfish things all day long, every day of the week.

At the end of the day, it's a personal decision. No state or law can change that, and it can't stop anyone from doing it. If someone decides that the pain of living is so much worse than the (perceived) pain of those he/she leaves behind, it's their decision. Who are we to judge and say that someone else should live a life in misery to spare his loved ones from grieving? Yes, it's the ultimate selfish thing to do... But in a selfish world. If/when we stop being so selfish as humans in other aspects of life, maybe then we can have a discussion that no one should be allowed to be so selfish to kill him/herself... But not before. Not when people all over the world day in, day out because of the selfishness of others.

 

[TimH]

i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.

As the person who helped kick off this can of worms, I'm not offended. I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects.

 

[spoiledbroth]

i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.

This moral relativism serves who?

 

[Adrian]

I would not normally comment on something like this and I take no moral stance. In my view we own our lives and we have the right to choose whether we continue or not. I do not regard suicide as a selfish act, as that would be me standing in judgement about feelings and circumstances of which I know nothing for any other person. Some people may leave loved ones behind because they believe those people will be better off without them. They may be right or wrong but it is there call and we can only rally stand in judgement about our own actions.

 

[Zweber12]

I literally live less than 5km from his restaurant in Crissier; I can tell you this is more than just “big news” in this region of Switzerland and Haute Savoie in FR.

 

[Bill T]

Ready the Ban hammer

Eechef, you are a Douche Sir. Plain and simple..a F#cking Douche

 

[Bill13]

Ready the Ban hammer

Eechef, you are a Douche Sir. Plain and simple..a F#cking Douche

Is this where we say something stupid and childish like "it takes one to know one"? Calling someone a douche or ignorant adds nothing useful to an interesting and obviously emotional issue. It also does nothing to convince others you are correct, at least I hope not.

My hope with starting this thread was to bring attention to the stresses people at the top deal with. Was ecchef's comment helpful in this regard, no. But I think it is time to move past that. To that end I will recommend the book about another chef who committed suicide http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MGAHXM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 I read it a few years ago and it was a great book.

 

[Dave Martell]

Dave (ecchef) has always been one of the best members of this community and that still stands as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to speak for him but I'm guessing that he said what he did because he's been in the trenches a LONG time and knows a lot about the subject matter.

Maybe we should get back to the original topic of the thread vs roasting Dave?

 

[Bill13]

Dave (ecchef) has always been one of the best members of this community and that still stands as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to speak for him but I'm guessing that he said what he did because he's been in the trenches a LONG time and knows a lot about the subject matter.

Maybe we should get back to the original topic of the thread vs roasting Dave?

lus1:

 

[spoiledbroth]

I wanted to reinforce I wasn't attacking ecchef. I see it as a "strong silent type" of reaction, which like I said is permissible in society I believe as a relic of an earlier time when there was a different prevailing point of view on the "sanctity of life" and a lesser awareness of mental health issues.

And also to reiterate that outside of more complex, highly controversial topics like physician assisted death/suicide (which we are not allowed to discuss here- and for good reason IMO), this chef's suicide should if nothing else get you thinking about the state of mental health care and societal attitudes toward it in your respective countries, and the people you love around you.

It is always a sad thing when a person leaves this mortal coil, even moreso when they precipitate the event.

That's the last I'll say about it!

 

[mr drinky]

Jesus people. ONE big snowfall out east and you all get snowed-in cabin fever and make this lord of the flies. Or maybe it was the disappointment of groundhog day. I don't know. Now I have to go shovel my driveway.

k.

 

[MAS4T0]

Can this be closed and deleted?

It's veered massively from the original post to now being a mixture of flaming Dave and moral debate; which is best kept off this forum. If this continues, we're just going to end up falling out and disliking each other.

The comments about Dave are out of line, you can't make a judgement about him from that one post, you don't know how it was meant, and even if it was meant as you read it, he's entitled to that opinion.

Suicide is a line in the sand. A man who commits suicide has killed his mother's son, his wife's husband and his children's farther. If someone has nobody, then maybe their life is their own, and it's their choice to take their own life, but once married and with children your life is not just yours! You may have the right to take your own life, but you don't have the right to rob a woman of her husband, and children of their farther.

 

[chiffonodd]

I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.

 

[brianh]

I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.

Well said. I'm trying to remain respectful here. No one jokes about cancer, but somehow mental illness is a sign of weakness. Not always. It would be wise for us to remember that there are those of us here who had friends or family who have gone through this.

 

[MAS4T0]

No one jokes about cancer, but somehow mental illness is a sign of weakness.

Where I come from people do. Someone with lung cancer as a direct result of being a heavy smoking for decades (despite health warnings) would be looked upon poorly. The same goes with obesity and the diseases that come with it. I'm not saying that the individual is to blame, but mental health issues are not the only issues which people ridicule.

Maybe British humor is darker.

The common thread is that it's self inflicted, as suicide invariably is. Suicide is a betrayal of all who love you, and everyone who has tried to help you get through it. They could have cut you adrift long ago, but they stayed with you and yet you abandoned them.

 

[Bill13]

I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.

That looks like a great book. My local library has it and I have placed it on hold. Thanks again.

 

[brianh]

Where I come from people do. Someone with lung cancer as a direct result of being a heavy smoking for decades (despite health warnings) would be looked upon poorly. The same goes with obesity and the diseases that come with it.

The common thread is that it's self inflicted, as suicide invariably is. Suicide is a betrayal of all who love you, and everyone who has tried to help you get through it. They could have cut you adrift long ago, but they stayed with you and yet you abandoned them.

Infuriating. You've couldn't have missed my point any further.

 

[MAS4T0]

Infuriating. You've couldn't have missed my point any further.

I'm sorry. Reading that back, it comes across differently to how I intended it.

I felt the need to express that it's not only mental illness which is ridiculed, I didn't mean to offend.

 

[brianh]

I'm sorry. Reading that back, it comes across directly rio how I intended it.

I felt the need to express that it's not only mental illness which is ridiculed, I didn't mean to offend.

Thanks, man. Of course some will romanticize it and refuse help for needed life changes. It's the lack of empathy from some which is really disturbing. I don't think many in their right mind will end their lives, and ridicule is likely a part of what drove them to that point.

 

[MAS4T0]

Thanks, man. Of course some will romanticize it and refuse help for needed life changes. It's the lack of empathy from some which is really disturbing. I don't think many in their right mind will end their lives, and ridicule is likely a part of what drove them to that point.

I agree.

I feel compelled to say this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it to avoid offending people, so please bear with me.

I personally feel that the traditional attitude to suicide should not change and should not soften. I feel that it should be considered that they committed suicide rather than that they were the victim of suicide, and that there should not be any public outpouring of compassion upon death.

We should have respect for the dead and empathy for those dealing with personal issues, but suicide must never appear to anyone as a path to martyrdom or salvation.

I feel that the erosion of religion has reduced the perceived value of our lives and this is a terrible shame. In the Christian tradition, through suicide you are simply separating yourself from God, Christ and all those who love you - in order to give yourself over entirely to your demons. In effect you are choosing to give your soul over to the demons who have plagued you, rather than trusting in God to deliver you from them. Suicide may make things worse for all involved, and rather than being a way out, a way to end things, it could simply be a case of diving into the abyss with no possibility of salvation. Suicide is not giving up on life, but giving up on salvation.

Again, if it weren't 3:30am I would be able to phase things in a more sympathetic way (and that it how it is meant).

Edit: I just realised that I sound like a religious preacher. I am not, I am not even baptised. I was however educated in a Roman Catholic school, so I am quite well acquainted with the teachings.

 

[alterwisser]

I agree.

I feel compelled to say this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it to avoid offending people, so please bear with me.

I personally feel that the traditional attitude to suicide should not change and should not soften. I feel that it should be considered that they committed suicide rather than that they were the victim of suicide, and that there should not be any public outpouring of compassion upon death.

We should have respect for the dead and empathy for those dealing with personal issues, but suicide must never appear to anyone as a path to martyrdom or salvation.

I feel that the erosion of religion has reduced the perceived value of our lives and this is a terrible shame. In the Christian tradition, through suicide you are simply separating yourself from God, Christ and all those who love you - in order to give yourself over entirely to your demons. In effect you are choosing to give your soul over to the demons who have plagued you, rather than trusting in God to deliver you from them. Suicide may make things worse for all involved, and rather than being a way out, a way to end things, it could simply be a case of diving into the abyss with no possibility of salvation. Suicide is not giving up on life, but giving up on salvation.

Again, if it weren't 3:30am I would be able to phase things in a more sympathetic way (and that it how it is meant).

Edit: I just realised that I sound like a religious preacher. I am not, I am not even baptised. I was however educated in a Roman Catholic school, so I am quite well acquainted with the teachings.

Some people don't believe in God, salvation and the likes... what about them?

 

[MAS4T0]

Some people don't believe in God, salvation and the likes... what about them?

That's exactly my point! As I said that the bottom, I'm one of those people.

It seems that increased suicide rates are due (at least in part) to lack of belief, it seems that the perceived value of life (including ones own life) is diminished.

A religious person would see that suicide would only make things worse, while a non-believer would see it as a way out. I think that this shifted perspective is helping fuel rising suicide rates.

 

[chiffonodd]

It does not glorify or encourage suicide to recognize the fact (yes, fact) that it is precipitated by either the subjective experience of unendurable pain or some form of psychosis, often both. Nor does it glorify or encourage suicide to show compassion to the memory of those who have succumbed to grave illness.

As for whether it is a "choice," that is not a simple question. Yes it is volitional, that is, done intentionally. But I think that the concept of "choice" usually presupposes some degree of rational decision-making in order to be meaningful. A person who is suicidal may very well be (in fact, is quite likely to be) in the grips of delusional and/or hallucinatory mental illness, in which the mind loses the ability to think rationally -- i.e., to see, in your words, that it will "just make things worse." This is corroborated by the self-reports of many people who have survived suicide attemps. Often as the attempt was underway (for example, as they are falling after jumping), they are gripped with an incredible sense of terror and regret, because survival instinct kicks in. A different layer of consciousness takes over. And for a moment it is enough to jar them out of the delusional perceptions that are the product of dysphoric mania, major depression, schizoaffective disorder, or whatever else was plaguing them. But they lacked the ability (quite literally, the mental ability) to come to that realization without the external shock of the event itself.

That suicide can strike anyone -- young, old, rich, poor, man, woman, success, failure -- is really very strong evidence that it has nothing to do with rational thought. It is a diseased mind that forms the intent to kill itself. Moralizing the decision neither makes sense nor is likely to do anything to prevent suicide, if that is the goal. If anything it is likely only to increase the sense of guilt, shame, and worthlessness that feeds at least one contributor in the form of major depression. It takes a tremendous amount of support and caring to defeat depression on that scale. Judgment and derision are just about the last things needed by a person at high risk for suicide.

 

[MAS4T0]

It takes a tremendous amount of support and caring to defeat depression on that scale. Judgment and derision are just about the last things needed by a person at high risk for suicide.

I couldn't agree more. People going through this need immense support and should get it. I would be more than willing to help in any way I could, as I'm sure almost everyone else would.

To me though, suicide is a line in the sand. Other than in the event of a psychotic episode where the person was insane, I would be infuriated by their decision to take their own life.

None of what I've said, applies to someone who was truly insane, and I do consider those people to have been victims of suicide rather then the perpetrators.

Apparently though, more than half are not insane and I do feel that those not suffering from mental illness could have worked their way through their problems.

 

[spoiledbroth]

Mental illness is frequently undiagnosed until a major episode (which may be suicide)

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves (premeditation, etc) over even the most acrimonious break up

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves for any of the other reasons given there save illness.

Perhaps you are unwilling to view suicide as a symptom of a deeper problem which is invariably mental illness. I understand why some people simply don't understand- depression or other forms of mental illness are impossible to understand unless it's happened to someone close to you, or you yourself, and you have taken the time to be introspective about the experience.

 

[MAS4T0]

Mental illness is frequently undiagnosed until a major episode (which may be suicide)

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves (premeditation, etc) over even the most acrimonious break up

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves for any of the other reasons given there save illness.

Perhaps you are unwilling to view suicide as a symptom of a deeper problem which is invariably mental illness. I understand why some people simply don't understand- depression or other forms of mental illness are impossible to understand unless it's happened to someone close to you, or you yourself, and you have taken the time to be introspective about the experience.

Just to be clear, I didn't make that chart. I also found that proportionally, 2x as many people kill themselves in the US as in the UK. I find life in each to be pretty similar, with similar living standards and culture. All I can put it down to is access to firearms, given that the majority of US suicides are carried out that way and it doesn't require prior planning, only a moment of madness.

I'm not a medical professional, so far be it from me to say who does and doesn't have a mental illness or is mentally stable; I would say though that suicide is not in itself evidence of mental illness.

I'm not saying that it's right and in truth it's probably a flaw on my part, but I know that if someone close to me did to take their own life I would never be able to forgive them.

Edit: I just realised that I'm every other post for a full page. I don't want to argue with or preach to you guys, so unless I'm asked anything directly, I'll leave this alone now. If I've offended anyone I apologise, it wasn't intentional.

 

[TimH]

I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.

I strongly second this recommendation. I read it during my two month stay in the psych hospital ten years ago. My unit was filled with high performing professionals with mental health issues. The chef in question likely would have fit right in.