Another Chef Suicide

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I am a chef myself and I can just feel sorry for his family.
Who are working in this business like me know how hard is it keep that kind of level of food. The stress I experienced when I am working in a mitchelin star environment has no word.
Chefs are a proud kind of human beings. One bad feedback on your own food can destroy all your humor.
Rip
 
panda said:
you know what i gather from people resorting to you know what due to pressure and ridicule? egotistical and weak minded.
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A fundamental misapprehension of the causes of suicide, and an attitude that perpetuates much of the pain of these sort of industries. Not just cooking - medicine, law . . . anything with extreme hours and pressure. Lawyers have substance abuse and depression rates 18X the national average. Divorce is rampant. I've seen it up close for years. The tougher they talk, the more their own inner lives are in shambles, believe me. One wonders if things would be different if people treated each other with more compassion and we're unafraid to admit their own struggles. This isn't some kumbaya nonsense - this is quite literally in some cases a matter of life and death.
 
what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.
 
It's hard to say why exactly people do this. There are factors that affect the decision, of course. I can say that after my wife had cancer twice (lymphoma), i can see why some people resort to it as a way to end suffering. Life, as we know it, looses all its appeal. There was a great poet in Brazil, Machado de Assis, that wrote a poem talking about his deceased wife and the lack of appeal his new life without her had. They lived together for 35 years. At the end, he says (badly translated): "If i have ... thoughts of life, they are thoughts gone and already lived".
 
panda said:
what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.
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You're right that the vast majority of people who face severe hardships do so without committing suicide. That is because suicide typically results from the confluence of hardship and some underlying mental health condition. The reason I say it is not kumbaya nonsense is because this is data driven, cutting edge medical research -- microbiology, brain imaging studies, and the like. Robin Williams for example had Lewy Bodies (protein aggregates in the brain), caused by Parkinson's Disease, which causes extreme paranoia and dementia-like symptoms. It is very likely that his suicide was influenced in large part by this disorder. Does it make sense to call that a charafter flaw? I think not. Likewise, in major depressive disorder, brain scans show a marked decrease in functional connectivity between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, suggesting that the pathophysiology of MDD results from a physical inability of the brain to regulate response to negative emotional stimulus in the same way that a healthy person would. The fact is that we are able now to unlock some of the biological underpinnings of mental illness. What previously may have been viewed as weakness of character may, in many cases, be an actual physical defect in the neural architecture of the brain. And as I said before, how can one simply think their way out of depression when the mind itself is broken?
 
Edit: Deleted - I said I'd stay out of this now.
 
weak mind? anything related to a closed mind?

i dont understand suicide at all. but i'm not closed minded enough to call it a sign of weakness. unless i'm in that moment tied to the other person's thought waves, i'll never get it.

RIP chef dude suicide guy. hope he found what he was looking for on the other side.

i say it now and for as long as i can. i am going down SWINGING.
 
panda said:
what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.
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Obviously you don't get it :/ normal healthy people do not have suicidal ideation. Period. Full stop.
 
boomchakabowwow said:
weak mind? anything related to a closed mind?

i dont understand suicide at all. but i'm not closed minded enough to call it a sign of weakness. unless i'm in that moment tied to the other person's thought waves, i'll never get it.

RIP chef dude suicide guy. hope he found what he was looking for on the other side.

i say it now and for as long as i can. i am going down SWINGING.
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Yep
 
chiffonodd said:
Put another way, people are entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts.
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I regret that I'm wading back in here, but is there any empirical evidence which shows that a significant proportion of the 55% of suicides which are not attributed to mental illness do indeed have some underlying mental health issue?

I understand the argument that nobody in their right mind would take their life, but that is not sufficient grounds for a diagnosis.
 
Teenages do not all experience "real" suicidal ideation. As I said before suicidal ideation almost always implies a planning or premeditated component- a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.

If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.

MAS4T0 said:
I regret that I'm wading back in here, but is there any empirical evidence which shows that a significant proportion of the 55% of suicides which are not attributed to mental illness do indeed have some underlying mental health issue?

I understand the argument that nobody in their right mind would take their life, but that is not sufficient grounds for a diagnosis.
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It is absolutely sufficient grounds for diagnosis of mental illness. To have killed yourself? Dude! It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem (again excluding end of life/physician assisted death)

If we are strictly talking "despair" related suicide, which encompasses all the things on your graph, IT IS A TOTAL OVERREACTION, such a severe overreaction that the only thing that could precipitate it is deficiency in neurological function or a psychological breakdown (or longterm mental illness).Healthy people don't just kill themselves- and that's not my "opinion" that is the way suicidality is viewed at least in canada by mental health professionals.

I am not talking about seppuku, or the culture surrounding inuk or hindu suicide or the propensity of nepalese monks to set themselves on fire. Rational suicide is another thing entirely.

Please: if the idea of killing yourself seems somehow sane, normal or agreeable to you, please get some help. It's really not a normal way of thinking.
 
Thanks so far to everyone who has posted here whether I agree or not. I think even with some bumps along the way, the level of discourse is heightened above what I'd hoped for and much higher than what I expected. I had assumed there would be a cascade of replies all along the lines of "thoughts and prayers.." or something more secular but analogous. I'm grateful for the differing viewpoints and recommendations for exploring the depth and breadth of the topic, something I would have never gotten had this thread been locked or deleted. I think disagreement doesn't necessarily weaken a community, quite the opposite and I think most of us are in need of practice when it comes to hearing one another even when we don't see eye to eye.

I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?
 
spoiledbroth said:
Teenages do not all experience "real" suicidal ideation. As I said before suicidal ideation almost always implies a planning or premeditated component- a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.

If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.

It is absolutely sufficient grounds for diagnosis of mental illness. To have killed yourself? Dude! It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem (again excluding end of life/physician assisted death)

If we are strictly talking "despair" related suicide, which encompasses all the things on your graph, IT IS A TOTAL OVERREACTION, such a severe overreaction that the only thing that could precipitate it is deficiency in neurological function or a psychological breakdown (or longterm mental illness).Healthy people don't just kill themselves- and that's not my "opinion" that is the way suicidality is viewed at least in canada by mental health professionals.

I am not talking about seppuku, or the culture surrounding inuk or hindu suicide or the propensity of nepalese monks to set themselves on fire. Rational suicide is another thing entirely.

Please: if the idea of killing yourself seems somehow sane, normal or agreeable to you, please get some help. It's really not a normal way of thinking.
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I understand the opinion that suicide is evidence enough of insanity, but without supporting evidence, that is an opinion. To my mind, the idea that suicide is always due to an underlying mental disorder is ridiculous. As I said, I understand the sentiment that nobody of sound mind would kill themselves, and that the act itself is proof enough, but that is only opinion and is not evidence of a neurological disorder. I was replying to the comment that you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts; without proper evidence this seems to fall into the realm of opinion.

Suicide is most definitely an "total overreaction" to the pressures and losses of life, but in general, so is murder. By that line of thought you could equally well argue that nobody of sound mind would murder another human being, as it is by no means a reasonable thing to do - the logical conclusion would be that all murderers are not guilty by way of insanity. There are however plenty of murderers in prison who have been found guilty of their crimes and have not been deemed to be insane, including the majority of prolific serial killers...

pleue said:
I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?
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Do you mean do I think that I personally deserve it, or people in general?
 
In general, ie do our actions dictate whether or not we deserve empathy, is it a privilege that can be earned/revoked?
 
pleue said:
I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?
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Man, that one deserves its own thread -- I suspect there are widely varying viewpoints.

To me, I think the world works best when there is a mix of people who are typically empathetic, and some who are not. Like everything else some balance is needed to keep things from straying too far in one direction or the other.
 
pleue said:
In general, ie do our actions dictate whether or not we deserve empathy, is it a privilege that can be earned/revoked?
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I don't feel that I deserve compassion or love from anyone and nor would I ever expect it. I would hope that some of the people I know would feel compassion for me and would be able to understand my perspective, but I don't think that it is a right I have and I do feel that those people have the right to revoke their love at any point.

I don't feel though that anyone else is undeserving of love or that it is a privilege which can or should be revoked overall for any given person. I think that it's entirely discretionary and at the discretion of the person giving.

I'm using the term "love" in the general form of caring for their wellbeing, as I don't think that empathy is what you're asking about. As I understand it, empathy is simply looking at something from their viewpoint, without any implication of sympathy or compassion. A biographer for instance would need to have empathy for the person they are writing about, to see things from their perspective as it were, but it does not necessarily imply that they feel compassion or sympathy for the person.
 
RIP Chef

I first read about Benoit's restaurant and dishes in So Good Magazine , would've loved to eat there.

I've been touched by suicide of someone close , totally tragic for everybody. Feel for anyone who looses a person or persons close to them to this terribly all too common act.
 
TimH said:
As the person who helped kick off this can of worms, I'm not offended. I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects.
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I've been absent from the forum for months. I checked-in on a lark and found my friend Danny has died. Then I open this thread and find a discussion about correctness of conduct after tragedy and how failing such conduct may offend others. Many may not choose to read what I have to say, I'm long winded and a nobody to this forum, but I believe I have something to offer the discussion.

This is about thought; particularly, the direction we choose to allow our thoughts to take. I want to say ecchef's remark need not be taken as offensive. TimH has spoken with great restraint and labored to understand the mind of his fellow forum member. Perhaps also to place the image of the fallen Chef and his wife into a perspective that is not utterly mad with insensitivity. When I saw the one-two punch of those posts I assumed some would be shocked.

Many cope with the profound challenges of culinary work or ANY challenging lifestyle in a way that only they understand...and the outward projection of their coping remains a mystery to others. Ecchef sounded to me like a man who is firmly dedicated to fight his demons. He wasn't necessarily speaking to the forum community with his words but to those demons directly. He may have jested about another available woman after her esteemed husband's suicide in literal terms, but in point of fact, such language is starkly about the business of LIVING and moving forward. This is what many labor to do...to keep their thought trending away from despair and negativity. Humor is one vehicle to interrupt a stream of thinking that unchecked, can take us to a bad place.

I cannot know what was really coming out when Ecchef spoke...but he was among the first in this community to welcome me personally...to reply to my PM's and to enrich my forum experience. My immediate thought was to know this person was not disrespecting a fellow chef. he is telling his demons to f*^& off. My next reaction was to look for Panda's post. Men of courage are often misunderstood for not apologizing for their language. Sometimes we can be part of the problem. By choosing to feel a certain way about thoughts we don't really understand, we can create rifts between us that need not exist.

I had 2 coworkers kill themselves in the last 10 years. 3 years ago my best friend took his own life. My buddy dove off a bridge and died alone to quiet the voices in his head. Voices that called upon him to harm others. The other two co-workers lost their jobs and couldn't face the dilemma...the crushing weight of failing their families.

As TimH said, "I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects." But I direct the words not to those who mock the men and women who quit life...I speak to those who choose to seek the dark and negative interpretation of another person's actions. Even the expert that TimH cites, who delved into the psyche of the suicidal in quest of explanation, in an event of tragic irony, took his own life. How can any of us honor the dead that way? Thus the meaning of the picture that followed Ecchef's...a portrait of better times, of love and of success.

My next meal will include a toast to Danny, and a reflection upon the sacrifices that go with its preparation. May we never take them for granted.
 
spoiledbroth said:
a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.

If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.

It is absolutely sufficient grounds for diagnosis of mental illness. To have killed yourself? Dude! It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem (again excluding end of life/physician assisted death)


Please: if the idea of killing yourself seems somehow sane, normal or agreeable to you, please get some help. It's really not a normal way of thinking.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with this at all, I don't believe you have to have any kind of mental illness to kill yourself or want to. A crisis or perceived crisis can hit anyone at any time and I don't think it''s crazy for someone to think it's not worth fighting through it and either kill themself or think about it. As for getting help, if your life has been completely destroyed, I can see the viewpoint that talking about it isn't going to magically fix it

I think generally suicide deserves a lot of empathy. That someone can feel their life is in such a state that no matter what good things there are in their life are outweighed by the bad, I think it's very sad
 
If this guy made knives with exotic wood handles and owed a bunch of people on here customs and or money he would be getting a lot more sympathy, Jesus
 
If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.
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Ugh... no. That's a pretty alarmist statement, that refutes a lot of what we know about the human condition after thousands of years of psychological study and introspection. Basic suicidal thoughts are absolutely normal, and everyone has them now and then. It is how we respond to those thoughts that indicates the need for intervention: one worrying symptom is intrusiveness, or the psychological persistence of a particular thought; that is to say, you find that it is "always on your mind." When the thoughts become distressing. When the thoughts make you feel helpless, or out of control; when the thoughts become bigger than you are.

Having the occasional urge to blow your brains all over the place is a part of being human, just like having the occasional urge to run over your neighbor's yapping terrier with the lawn mower. It's entirely normal to have dark and evil thoughts, and to go to dark and ugly places in our minds; it's our relationship with those thoughts, and how we manage them, that defines (in part) our mental health.
 
drawman623 said:
I've been absent from the forum for months. I checked-in on a lark and found my friend Danny has died. Then I open this thread and find a discussion about correctness of conduct after tragedy and how failing such conduct may offend others. Many may not choose to read what I have to say, I'm long winded and a nobody to this forum, but I believe I have something to offer the discussion.

This is about thought; particularly, the direction we choose to allow our thoughts to take. I want to say ecchef's remark need not be taken as offensive. TimH has spoken with great restraint and labored to understand the mind of his fellow forum member. Perhaps also to place the image of the fallen Chef and his wife into a perspective that is not utterly mad with insensitivity. When I saw the one-two punch of those posts I assumed some would be shocked.

Many cope with the profound challenges of culinary work or ANY challenging lifestyle in a way that only they understand...and the outward projection of their coping remains a mystery to others. Ecchef sounded to me like a man who is firmly dedicated to fight his demons. He wasn't necessarily speaking to the forum community with his words but to those demons directly. He may have jested about another available woman after her esteemed husband's suicide in literal terms, but in point of fact, such language is starkly about the business of LIVING and moving forward. This is what many labor to do...to keep their thought trending away from despair and negativity. Humor is one vehicle to interrupt a stream of thinking that unchecked, can take us to a bad place.

I cannot know what was really coming out when Ecchef spoke...but he was among the first in this community to welcome me personally...to reply to my PM's and to enrich my forum experience. My immediate thought was to know this person was not disrespecting a fellow chef. he is telling his demons to f*^& off. My next reaction was to look for Panda's post. Men of courage are often misunderstood for not apologizing for their language. Sometimes we can be part of the problem. By choosing to feel a certain way about thoughts we don't really understand, we can create rifts between us that need not exist.

I had 2 coworkers kill themselves in the last 10 years. 3 years ago my best friend took his own life. My buddy dove off a bridge and died alone to quiet the voices in his head. Voices that called upon him to harm others. The other two co-workers lost their jobs and couldn't face the dilemma...the crushing weight of failing their families.

As TimH said, "I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects." But I direct the words not to those who mock the men and women who quit life...I speak to those who choose to seek the dark and negative interpretation of another person's actions. Even the expert that TimH cites, who delved into the psyche of the suicidal in quest of explanation, in an event of tragic irony, took his own life. How can any of us honor the dead that way? Thus the meaning of the picture that followed Ecchef's...a portrait of better times, of love and of success.

My next meal will include a toast to Danny, and a reflection upon the sacrifices that go with its preparation. May we never take them for granted.
Click to expand...

Wise words.

To Danny.
 
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